Talk:National Socialist Party

Swastika Picture
if anyone takes exception to the swastika picture (i know we have German contributors), i'd suggest replacing it with a picture of a swastika display in context from Patterns of Force, i'm trying to cap one for eventual use.. any thoughts on the article

i'm suggesting we take a moratorium on entering any more real life data, this articles expansion should really only involve Nazi references from the Trek universe since the overview is complete as written --Captain Mike K. Bartel 18:21, 9 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * I agree with both - this is enough real life data, and the picture should be replaced with one that has a little more context. Other sources for that picture might be the two episodes I added to Appearances. -- Cid Highwind 19:00, 9 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * I agree. I'll add a link to the Wikipedia for the historical info. -- Harry 20:41, 30 Sep 2004 (CEST)

Real life info
in accordance with above suggestion (keeping real-life info not mentioned on Star Trek out of the article or in a background section), i'd like to question the most recent edit -- "Look up the Holocaust, which had a death toll of 6 million Jewish Citizens of Germany and other European Countries.".

Since its linked, does this mean the Holocaust was mentioned on Star Trek? the episode should probably be cited in this article too, since it is closely related to Naziism. also, would the term "Holocaust" technically be limited to just the Jewish? Homosexuals, gypsies, many others were the victims of extermination orders. That's why it was put vaguely as "executing its own" or whatever, to acknowledge the horror without going into specifics. -- Captain M.K.B. 02:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. This reference should be eliminated pronto.  Not only was it not mentioned in star trek canon and it unfairly centers out one group that was oppressed without references to the others.  As a gay man I take offense to this, as gays were killed in the holocaust too.  Perhaps we should mention that the death toll in WWII, in star trek canon, is much less than that of WWIII.  Federation 03:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Homosexuals were accused of being deviant from the perceived Nazi order of things, not of being the supposed living embodiment and/or source of all ills to exist in the history of creation. Holocaust is likewise not a "worldly" word, to begin with, like for instance "genocide"; Holocaust is a Hebrew word, used in reference to the slaughter of 6 million of their people. --ChrisK 13:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, "holocaust" comes from a Greek word meaning "destruction by fire". The English word existed long before WWII. The Hebrew word you are referring to is "shoah". Interestingly enough, the word "genocide", although also derived from Greek, didn't exist before 1944. Just saying. --MikeyChalupa 03:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You are excatly right. I'll just add another bit of confirmation, the Hebrew word is "shoah". I am Jewish myself, and the day of remembrance of the Holocaust is Yom HaShoah. --OuroborosCobra talk |undefined  04:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust
I think the Holocaust should be mentioned, since Earth History, pre-Eugenics War was basically the same, wasn't it? The person who editted that post also could have thought that the Jewish people were the most prominent member of the Holocaust. I mean, it isn't vandalism if it is fact, is it?
 * I wouldn't go so far to say "vandalism", but i agree it should be removed. If the holocaust wasn't mentioned on Star Trek, then we can't make an article about it here.


 * Important to human history or not, we simply cannot start changing the premise of this wiki based on events which may or may not be relevant to Star Trek - -that's why we require a concrete mention. I also think that Korea, Vietnam and Iraq are important to American history, but they were never overtly mentioned so we won't be creating articles about them either.


 * We should only reference events that were referenced on Star Trek, in the manner they were referenced on Star Trek, otherwise this database would become a complete survey of what individual contributors "think was important about human history". -- Captain M.K.B. 15:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Set a model for...fascism..."
This is not technically accurate. Fascism and Nazism, though "born of the same blood," so to speak, are not co-equal. Fascism is rule by a self-constituted elite who are deemed to be more "real," or valued, as people than those who are not among their group, and as such can take many forms. Nazism is a specific idealogy, whereby an entire people as a whole are deemed to be elite/superior to all other peoples of the known universe, and thus are entitled to treatment of those others by whatever means they so choose; likewise, Nazism's extensive use of specific pagan (in this case Norse) rituals for their own designs testify heavily to the movement's religio-philosophic dimensions, encompassing, in the end, an entirely unique "way of life." Nazism, as such, is as different (or perhaps more so) from fascism in general as a given Judaism, Christianity or Islam are from monotheistic belief alone. To have one you must have the other, but not vice versa.

Perhaps a better wording would be "set a model for...fanatacism...that has rarely been equalled." That would doubtless be true, and if on a galactic scale, would put into stark relief just what it was Kirk was willing to let Keeler die for. --ChrisK 09:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandal
can someone change it back please? --User with a probe 06:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. --Jörg 09:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Iffy History
They're a natural choice for villains in "fucked-up past" stories, but I don't think either "Nazi victory" scenarios seen in Trek would've ever really happened -

Temporal Cold War Scenario (Lenin murdered, Russia never turns red, Germany doesn't feel threatened by it, puts everything into the Western Front, defeats UK, control Atlantic and invade US) - the Battle of Britain was a lost cause before Operation Barbarossa was even on the drawing board, and even in Mein Kampf Hitler had spoken of invading Russia to get more lebensraum.

Gaurdian Scenario (Edith Keeler's pacifist following delays US entry long enough for Hitler to get The Bomb first) - Germany actually declared war on the US, after the US declared war on Japan, which a peace movement led by Jesus himself couldn't have prevented in the wake of Pearl Harbor.--Ten-pint 18:07, March 6, 2010 (UTC)