Memory Alpha:AOL chats/Ronald D. Moore/ron114.txt

Date: Tue, Jul 14, 1998 20:10 EDT From: RonDMoore Message-id: <1998071500105600.UAA03824@ladder03.news.aol.com>

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We have no plans to see any version of Bareil this year.

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I can give an unqualified "Maybe" to all of the above.

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We are working on some Garak stories right now.

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You will see her arrival on DS9.

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I think we all see this as the end of our careers at Star Trek and no one has any plans at the moment to move on to Voyager.

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We've talked about both showing up this year.

<<I realize that Ron Moore and others have taken exception to the complaints issued on the Dabo Girls, and the more recent complaints on Vic Fontaine's sexist language, and treatment of the "girls" in his program, so I thought I'd start from the beginning of the 6th season and work my way through the first half of the season to point out the consistant, and insipient sexism that exists in casting the show, and all areas regarding what genders consistantly play what roles.

A Time To Stand Cast= two women Guest Cast= 8 men no women...

Rocks and Shoals Guest Cast= 7 men 1 woman...

Sons and Daughters Guest Cast 5 men 2 women...>>

This is how you want to examine the issue of sexism in Trek? By counting the number of male and female guest stars? What about context? What about characterization? What about (rounding out the "c"s) content? This kind of analysis is one step above counting the number of lines or adding up screen time to determine some kind of bias.

For example, I will grant you that there were more male than female guest roles cast in "Rocks and Shoals" (which, by the way, had three female guest stars, not one), but I would hasten to point out that one entire storyline grapples with Kira (a woman) and her difficulty in living under Dominion rule and that her principal opponent in this tale was Vedek Yassim (another woman). Are you really suggesting that this story is inherently sexist simply because it has more speaking parts for men than women, regardless of the fact that it features very strong roles for Kira both and Yassim? I find that kind of reasoning unpersuasive at best.

<<...Ziyal, a poorly conceived character, for her identity was not as herself, but her affect on others. She was never Ziyal, but always Dukat's half Cardassian, half Bajoran daughter. Instead of being given a separate agenda and identity of her own, she was defined through Dukat, Kira, and Garak, this does not a character make.>>

Let's set aside the numbers game for the moment. Ziyal may not have been the best character we ever developed, but are you really saying she was poorly developed because she was a woman? That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Isn't it simpler to just realize that we never brought the character into focus and that changing Ziyal's gender wouldn't have made much difference, except to land us on the wrong side of your male/female guest star tally?

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Welcome to Catch-22. Cast a woman in the role and she's decried for being a "seductress." Cast a man in the role and he's decried for taking roles away from women.

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Since Sirella was in exactly one scene with Martok in the entire episode, I'm a little mystified as to how she was defined "inexorably" through her husband.

<<The reasons I object to the women with Vic is not because I deny they existed, or men such as Vic spoke of them like that, I just don't see their purpose in Trek Let's put it this way, I just saw Gone With the Wind, I loved it, but I can't see you  choosing to put a Southern Gentleman on the holodeck accompanied by his slaves, and realistic treatment of them. There are too few women in trek as it is, to be inundated by ancient, antiquated, and offensive characters who's sole purpose is to look sexy and be called names.>>

You've got to be kidding. You're drawing an analogy between black slaves in the 1860s and two adult women in the 1960s? People held in bondage are not analogous to a couple of ladies out on the town for a good time. This is the kind of overwrought, over the top argument that does nothing to advance the cause of sexual equality and does a lot of harm in the process by making the entire argument look ridiculous. And what exactly was so "ancient, antiquated, and offensive" about two women whose only crime seems to be their willingness to go out on a date with Vic and Odo and possibly engage in consensual sex (egads!)?

<<Although there have been female characters, very few of them are well- developed and they get significantly less screentime than the men. For example, compare Kai Winn with Dukat - both are similar kinds of characters (complex villains), both played by strong actors, both with important status in terms of the DS9 story (Bajoran religious leader, ex-Cardassian leader). Dukat appeared in 9 episodes this season, Kai Winn only one. Compare Female Changeling with Weyoun - both interesting characters with important roles to play in the story arc. Weyoun was in at least 7 episodes, FC in 3. And if you look at the rest of the supporting cast, the men are generally very well developed. The women are basically one-dimensional. Kassidy only appears as a love interest for Sisko. Keiko only appears as O'Brien's wife (remember the first season, when Keiko used to have a career and storylines of her own?). Ziyal - poorly written and dead. Add the fact that Kira and Dax were ittle more than romantic interest this season, and you've got a pattern of sexism in the treatment of female characters - they are being written as though they are less important, less central to the story, and less worthy of development than the men.>>

Kai Winn didn't show up as often as Gul Dukat, so that's sexist. Weyoun was seen more often than the Female Shapeshifter, so that's sexist too. And let's forget that Kasidy Yates is a freighter captain in her own right that once went to prison for her beliefs, her portrayal is sexist too. Oh, and I guess that Kira and Dax were in those sexist romantic stories all by themselves; Odo and Worf certainly weren't there along with them.

Come on. Doesn't it matter at all that Worf (the man) was willing to sacrifice his career, his honor, and his mission all in the name of love, while Dax (the woman) kept her wits about her, soldiered on in the face of pain and was willing to die to complete the mission? Or that Odo (the man) was the one thrown into a tizzy because of an affair of the heart while Kira (the woman) figured out her own feelings rather quickly?

Can we do better? Absolutely. Have we erred in not portraying enough diversity in the alien cultures encountered on DS9? Of course. But can you actually find an episode or a scene anywhere in the show that suggests women aren't as capable as men or that women are held back in any way by our heroes? I doubt it. Aren't the fundamental ideals of sexual equality inherent in the Federation are still upheld week after week? Definitely.

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Now why is it that one cannot die "heroically" for love or children? What kind of thinking is that? The only heroic death is one in the name of King and Country?