Talk:Romulan/archive

PNA
This is almost unbearable! Loads and loads of info are given, and I have absolutely no idea where it came from. References are given at the buttom of the article, but does that mean that I have to trace back the info and puzzle the references back together myself? Could someone please make references at the end of paagraphs/sections? -- Redge 13:53, 30 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * Where are the references? --Gvsualan 04:00, 11 Jan 2005 (CET)


 * This page contains a lot of fluff and has changed significantly since it was first featured as of the "Revision as of 00:04, 27 Jul 2004". Therefore, I removed the featured aricle per the intro on the Featured article removal candidates page. I also added the to the page until we get either a rewrite or concrete references. --Gvsualan 20:21, 5 Mar 2005 (GMT)


 * virtually all the stuff about the remans seems to be made up, w/o any logical basis in fact


 * This entry contains a good deal of information on Remans that is conjecture. The origins of the Reman species are unclear to say the least.


 * Does the really still apply to this article?  I agree it could be expanded, but so could a lot of articles, and most of the references have been placed.  My thinking is mark it as incomplete or remove the needs attention marking Logan 5 23:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia
I've noticed that parts of "Physiology" are identical with the Wikipedia. Are they taken from here to there or from there to here? --Porthos 00:28, 9 Aug 2005 (UTC)

- Investigate: The statement that Romulans are no stronger than humans is contested. Popular lore has it that they fall on a continuum of body strength between humans and Vulcans, but evidence is sketchy. Anyone who's got the time, do some poking around?


 * In ENT:Kir'shara, archer fight against vulcans soldiers and manage to beat them. The fighting scene didn't give the impression they were any stronger than archer.

--rami
 * Maybe they were really tired after searching for the Syrranites?--Mike Nobody 20:41, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC)

in enterprise when the "vulcans without logic" come to visit one throws archer with ease, and many times in many episodews the vulcan extra-human strength has been mentiond

Interest in humans?
There should be a section dealing with the inherent Romulan (cultural) interest in humans. Namely, the misconception about human height. Both Vreenak and Shinzon thought that Sisko and Picard would be taller, respectively. --Zeromaru 19:24, 1 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the "I thought you would be taller" comments come from a sense of respect (or possibly infamy). Even I tend to expect people who are famous or respected to be taller than they actually are. --70.121.26.115 04:09, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Romulan biology
Who ever said that Romulans became a new species in 2,000 years? They are NOT the same as Vulcans, but ARE descended from ancient Vulcans. It's simply a matter of breeding with other aliens, breeding-out the natives of conqered planets. It's possible that another race was native to Romulus (like the Remans are to Remus) and were subjected to "ethnic cleansing". The men were probably exterminated and the women were taken. It wouldn't be the first time an invading empire has attempted this. And it would be consistant with the variations between Vulcan and Romulan physiology.--Mike Nobody 16:26, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * Are the Romulans the same as Vulcans? No, there are physiological differences, obviously. But they seem to be all of relatively superificial phenotypic nature; it's impossible for them to have differentiated into a separate species in only 2,000 years. Therefore the article should reflect that Vulcans and Romulans are the same species (presumably different subspecies). -- Sci 04:45 9 October 2005 UTC


 * It comes down to canon. Were they called a race or species on screen? If so, that is what we go with. While it might be impossible for two species to come from one in 2000 years in real life (i'm not even commited to that theory), in the star trek universe 2000 years is a lot of time for random things to happen, and they did spend a lot of that time wandering around in space. Jaf 02:06, 11 Oct 2005 (UTC)Jaf


 * Evolutionary theory holds that it takes millions of years for one species to evolve from another. The Romulans do not have significantly different phenotypes from the Vulcans -- the only real difference is the forehead (and not even all Romulans have those), they share similar hair, similar ears, similar lifespans, similar blood. They're the same species. -- Sci


 * Jaf is correct, the main context should depend on what was said on-screen. Everything else might make a good background comment, though. Do you want to add it to the article? -- Cid Highwind 20:31, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * (re:Sci) I know my evolutionary theory, I've done my share of university biology classes, enough to know that the Darwinian theroy to which you are refering is quite debated and today even sometimes held against such odd ideas as sudden evolution theory. And that is just out here in the real world, in the trek universe you can add 1, 2 and 3, just off the top of my head to the list of ways 2 species can come from 1 in a shorter period of time. Just something to think about. Jaf 21:01, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)Jaf
 * Who ever said there was only one species living on Vulcan 2000 years ago? I always figured that the Vulcan-Normal foreheads lived with the Vulcan-V foreheads and most of the Vulcan-V's left (with some V'tosh ka'tur-like Vulcan-Normal's) because they couldn't psychologically take emotion-suppressing. Anyways, Romulans are referred to as a species in (by Dr. Crusher) and as a race in  (by Commander Riker), if that's worth anything.--Tim Thomason 21:58, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree they can't have evolved into a significantly in only 2000 years, espcially since for this species, 2000 in more likely some 40 generations only. However Bashir says in "Inter Arma Enim Silent leges" that differences are "significant".
 * A possible explaination : The bulk of the anti-surak vulans who left belonged to a racial minority whose characteristic included the proheminant forehead. A detail that corroborate this : we have black vulcans (Tuvok) . I also remember an "asian" vulcan woman. I can't remeber any non-white romulan.
 * Another theory for the forehead problem : these ridges could grow for hormonal reasons (linked to sexuality), and vulcan me ntal discipline could have eliminated the hormone.
 * Also, some of the physiologic differences could be explained by the organism's reaction to the different environment.
 * --rami
 * Commander Sirol of the was an "African"-Romulan. In fact, Vulcanoids have had many different appearances of note:
 * Vulcans:
 * Ridged forehead: T'Paal?
 * Flat forehead: T'Pol
 * Light-skinned: T'Pol
 * Dark-skinned: Tuvok
 * Oriental: T'Pring
 * Black hair: Tuvok
 * Brown hair: T'Pol
 * Red hair: T'Mir
 * Romulans:
 * Ridged forehead: Sirol
 * Flat forehead: Decius
 * Light-skinned: Telek R'Mor
 * Dark-skinned: Sirol
 * Oriental: Caithlin Dar
 * Black hair: Sirol
 * Brown hair: Donatra
 * Mintakans:
 * Ridged forehead: Nuria
 * Light-skinned: Nuria
 * Black hair: Liko
 * Brown hair: Oji
 * Remans:
 * Ridged forehead: Viceroy
 * Lightish-skinned: Viceroy
 * As you can see Romulans and Vulcans seem to have a racial counterpart, so any speculative "theory" on racial prejudice is somewhat unfounded. The one exception is the fact that Vulcans are a majority of flat foreheads (I thought ridged forehead Vulcans have been seen, but I guess I'm wrong), while the Romulans have a majority of ridged foreheads (the flat foreheads operating some ships during the Cold War with the Humans, if they get in a tight spot they can always claim that they're Vulcans).--Tim Thomason 00:53, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * You included T'Paal as having ridge Forehead, but there is no proof of that. After all Picard had ridge forehead because he was posing as a Romulan in Unification, doesn't mean Picard has pointed ears or ridge forehead. T'Paal is a Vulcan posing as a Romulan, that doesn't mean she really has ridge forehead. I think spies tend to use the Ridges on Romulus because it better hides there identity. --TOSrules 00:59, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, that's why I put a question mark after her name and why in the paragraph afterward state that there hasn't been seen any ridged Vulcans. I thought I saw one somewhere, as an extra or something, but I was wrong because I couldn't find anything on google (it's hard to search for these kind of things though). It states on her article that if she was a Vulcan then she wouldn't have to go through the process of adding ridges because ridge-less Romulans exist (Spock had an easy time living on Romulus). But as you said the ridges are helpful.--Tim Thomason 01:14, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Get A New Species In Only 2000 Years! Call now!
As all good evolutionary theorists know, we have two things that could explain the rapid evolution of the Romulans into a biologically distinct group, if not a completely different species. Although, I must admit, the use of the word "species" seems to be pointless in the Star Trek universe. A species is a population of organisms that can interbreed with eachother, not not other populations. With all the hybrids floating around, the Star Trek concept of "species" seems moot.

However, we all know that genotypical change is brought about by mutation. One very fast-acting and common source of mutation is radiation. If the vulcans that rejected Surak left the planet traeling in highly unstable warp ships, it's more than likely they all got a significant dosage of raditation. Also, their skin was prepared for the light of Vulcans seemingly red star, while Romulus, as we see in Nemesis, has a yellow star. This accounts for very different types of radiation which the Vulcan/Romulan DNA would not have a safeguard against. Plus, we all (should) know Steven J. Gould's theory of Punctuated Equilibrium, which states that evolution happens in quick bursts with long lulls inbetween. We just happen to see the effects of a Gouldian burst of genetic development. --The Rev 17:47, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... interesting. So then it's possible that the reason the Romulans have ridges in ENT and the TNG era but not on TOS is because the Romulans seen on ENT/TNG stayed primarily on their planet or within their system, while those seen on TOS were were descendents of those who spent their lives out-of-system aboard ships or something. Hey, it's a stretch, but it's possible, unless you wanna go for a Romulan augment virus. :P --From Andoria with Love 19:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought the accepted theory was that their slow migration caused them to constantly mix their blood with the species they encountered.

Reverted edits by 195.93.21.65
I just reverted the edits made today by the anon IP 195.93.21.65, for two reasons: 1. The user summarily deleted large portions of the existing article, and 2. replaced said content with copy-paste from the article at Wikipedia.

This is both copyright violation and plagiarism, and can be considered close to vandalism. If the anon editor wishes to expand on the article, this is not the way to do it. -- Michael Warren | Talk 16:43, 22 Oct 2005 (UTC)

noticed something
I have noticed that Romulan space and population appears to be much more vast than Vulcan, most likely because they breed at a much more rapid rate (rather than every seven years). Should this be noted? --172.191.8.213 09:12, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I think Vulcans can have children whenever they want to. (Tuvok's children seem to be less than 7 years apart)

Well it has been theorised that Romulans are Vulcans (already known) but the Romulans left BEFORE the Vulcans got rid of emotions possibly not wanting to. This also suggests that Vulcans already had space travel before bottling up emotions.

If P'Jem really was built in the 9th century BC and Surak lived in the 4th century AD, Vulcans would have had space travel for at least 1300 years before the Romulans left.

Romulan Empress
In the VOY ep "The Q and the Grey", Q mentions the Romulan Empress. This isn't defined, but I had a thought on this. Maybe he meant Vriha t'Rehu (as mentioned in the book The Romulan Way? IshaRihanha
 * Even if he did, that book is not canon. --OuroborosCobra talk |undefined  01:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Foreign Relations
Correct me if I am mistaken but I believe the Tholians are mentioned on one or more occassions as having diplomatic ties with Romulus? Why is there no mention of this in the appropriate section? Senator Tal'Aura mentions it and I think there are at least two other references to the Tholians in the canon.
 * If you can nail down an episode reference, please add it. I personally don't recall that at all, but with 700+ episodes and 10 movies, that doesn't really mean much :) -- Sulfur 00:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In, Senator Tal'aura mentioned a meeting with the Tholian ambassador, using this as an excuse to leave the senate before Shinzon's thalaron weapon was activated. Whether she was telling the truth or not, no one can say (although the novelization suggested she did indeed have such a meeting planned). --From Andoria with Love 01:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

removed text
I remove the following text (which I previously slapped an incite on and which Shran subsequently removed, and which was then put back):


 * There are those that reject this later theory, though, some for prejudice, some for religious beliefs.

Please do not re-insert the statement without a source (i.e. a citation). Thanks! -- Renegade54 13:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)