Talk:Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges (episode)

Sets
I noticed that Dr. Bashir stays aboard an Intrepid-class starship, the same as Voyager, and that the mess hall looks a lot like Voyager's. Can we confirm that they were using Voyager's mess hall set?


 * Yes, it was. Tough Little Ship 15:32, 1 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Does Romulus look the same in Nemesis as it does here? -- When it rains... it pours 17:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really, but it's a big planet...Jaz talk]] 04:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * From orbit I mean. It was first seen her wasn't it? Or was it first seen in "Unification"? -- When it rains... it pours 19:05, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Bashir's Collar
I noticed that Bashir has the probes implanted with his collar fully zipped. Then, the next shot of him shows the collar partially unzipped. You can tell because his rank insignia bulge out from his neck.

Finally, when he's brought before the continuing committee, his collar is fully zipped again.

Was this a costuming error?
 * This is the kind of 'error' that you will find a dozen examples in every episode of every fictional, edited TV show ever produced. 76.10.181.168 09:43, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Background Cleanup
I removed the following notes from under cast trivia for being frankly, not notable enough: In many, many DS9 (and other ST) eps, the story focuses on one or two main characters, and the others are relegated to a scene each (if at all). In regard to Garak, recurring characters often only appear in one scene. – Cleanse 05:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides Alexander Siddig (Julian Bashir), none of the other cast members appear in more than one scene.
 * Andrew Robinson only appears in the opening teaser.

Pronunciation of the title
Since i am not a native speaker of english i cannot provide a definitive pronunciation help in the form in which it is given here, but as a student of the latin language i can tell you that it is not pronunced as given here. Given in the article is a pronunciation of an english-speaking person, a "native speaker" of latin would pronounce it quite differently, something like: IN-ter AHR-ma e-nim SEE-lent LE-Gehs, with the "r" pronounced somwhat like italian. 91.64.113.157 01:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Now that is interesting. I was the one who did the pronunciation guide. I got it from the Companion, but I also asked two of my university colleagues (who are both lecturers in Latin) if the Companion was right before I put it on here. One said it was, the other said it wasn't, and no consensus was reached. Perhaps it should be noted that there are in fact two possible pronunciations - an 'English Latin' and a 'Native Latin'? As a Latin speaker though, I defer to your judgement on this. What do you think? – Bertaut talk 03:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don´t overetimate me, i´m in no way an "speaker" of latin, at least not fluent (in fact, i am german). I am quite sure that it should be pronounced as i wrote, but i can´t say for sure that the help i gave there is correct, because my pronunciation of english is not perfect. In the International Phonetic Alphabet it should be like this:
 * [ɪntɐ ˈaɾma ɛnɪm silɛnt ˈlɛgɛːs] 91.64.113.157 22:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I can definitely say that it should be pronounced just as the anonymous user from Germany said. Being German has an advantage here, because the way a native German speaker would pronounce the Latin words when reading them is pretty close to what they should sound in Latin (at least that's what we are told at school and uni ;-)) I will ask a friend of mine, who's a Latin teacher but I'm pretty sure [ɪntɐ ˈaɾma ɛnɪm silɛnt ˈlɛgɛːs] is right. --Jörg 22:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That is not completely true, the latin pronounciation we learn mosty in school and university is the pronounciation of latin in the middle ages. 91.64.113.157 22:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * So which one should we use here? I guess a German will always pronounce, or  always differently from the way an English speaker would pronounce it. The same as with deja-vu. We tend to pronounce it the French way, while in English it's pronounced, well, English ;-) --Jörg 22:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I vote we petition Ron Moore to change the title of the episode! I'll be back in work tomorrow, so I'll bring this back down to the Latin department and see if I can get a consensus this time, but it does seem like 91.64.113.157 is correct. – Bertaut talk 23:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I certainly dindn´t want to cause such a fuss about this, as Jörg said, there probably isn´t a really correct way to pronounce the title anyway, just a correct way to pronounce the latin phrase as a latin phrase. But it is certainly interesting that i got an answer so quickly here. Perhaps i´ll join and contribute a little more here. 91.64.113.157 12:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Fuss is good. We're all about the fuss. You raised a legitimate point, and one of the things I most admire about this site (and one of the reasons I joined myself) is the thoroughness. If somebody points out that something somewhere is wrong, you can gurantee there'll be a discussion until the problem is resolved. Anyway, I had the whole Latin department debating the pronunciation today, and the conclusion they've come to is that there are in fact several different 'correct' pronunciations. The pronunciation on the page at the moment is the correct English-Latin pronunciation, but there's also the German version and the native Latin version, and a couple of other versions, none of which render any of the others wrong - it's like different dialects (or so they tell me). As Jörg says, English people pronounce deja-vu differently to French people, but that doesn't mean they're mispronouncing it. Anyway, to cut a long story short(ish), they pretty much all agreed that a native Latin speaker would pronounce it 'IN-ter AHR-ma e-nim SEE-lent LE-Gehs'. So I think we should note both the English and the native Latin pronunciations. Just out of curiosity, how does Ross himself pronounce it in the episode? (I don't have the DVD to hand) – Bertaut talk 20:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I concur that not only is the pronunciation given wrong, but that the guy playing Admiral Ross muffed up the line. I am a native English-speaker and studied Latin for around ten years; the latter pronunciation ('IN-ter AHR-ma e-nim SEE-lent LE-Gehs') was how I was taught to speak Latin. Ross mangles it horribly with "Inner Armuh Eyenim sillint legiss". 87.114.38.23 10:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)Nefertum


 * The way Admiral Ross pronounces it is passable—we don't know how Latin was actually pronounced, so most people today just go ahead and pronounce it at least somewhat close to how it appears to be written, and only pedants with nothing better to do quibble about this sort of thing. However, his "EYE-nim" for enim is glaringly incorrect; it contains a diphthong that isn't present in the word enim. This is really the only point that is worth remarking upon regarding his pronunciation. --Makaristos 07:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Though most of Admiral Ross's pronunciation of the Latin phrase Inter arma enim silent leges is correct (or at least passable), he badly mispronounces the word enim, meaning "for" or "because", as "EYE-nim". It should in fact be pronounced "EH-nim".
 * This whole thing is a nitpick over someone's pronunciation...my goodness. Why aren't we nitpicking Bashir's pronunciation of Cicero? That isn't with soft C's...but some people pronounce it that way...so why is admiral ross's pronunciation such a big deal? &mdash; Morder 07:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Title...
Bashir's translation was actually quite correct, a literal one would be: 'in-between war, surely shall the laws silence', the point is that 'arma', can also mean 'war' and not only 'arms', but only war on a grand scale, not a personal struggle. 'Inter' means 'in-between', 'during', that kind. All those translations that have been up here through the years look like word-per-word dictionary translations. GarakxBashirKawaii 04:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Reference
This page mentions the connection between the USS Bellerophon and the episode Chimera. But I'm wondering if there is a connection between the starship and Kimara Cretak. Any confirmation? Worth mentioning anyway? Xavius, Envoy of Fluidic Space 21:55, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Only appearance of Intrepid-class outside of Voyager?
Is this really the only appearance of an ship outside of Voyager? The Intrepid class article says that ships of this class also appear on a display in and as a database image in, but I suppose neither of those counts as a "real" appearance of a ship of this class. But were there really no Intrepid-class ships in any of the big Dominion War battles in the last few seasons of Deep Space Nine? If not, why not? Were the DS9 folks forbidden from using this class — and if so, how did they get permission to use the Voyager sets and graphics for this episode? —Josiah Rowe 04:22, October 19, 2010 (UTC)

Removed
I have removed the following since the incite has been there for several months.
 * The plot of this episode shares many points with the 1963 novel .  In the book, a discredited British spy is sent on what he thinks is an operation to bring down the brutal head of East German intelligence, only to find that the man is a British agent and the real object of the operation is to discredit the man's humane and well-intentioned deputy, who was close to exposing him and ends up being executed.  Two other innocent lives are sacrificed as well to keep the East German spy chief in place.

If anyone finds a source, feel free to re-add it. -- TrekFan Open a channel 21:36, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Removed. - 11:08, May 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * As of March 2011:
 * GEOS.tv users gave this episode an average rating of 8.77/10 based on 304 votes, ranking the episode fourth in the season and 24th of 175 episodes produced overall.
 * TV.com users rated this episode 9.1/10 based on 119 votes.
 * Ex Astris Scientia gave this episode a rating of 8/10.
 * Jammer's Reviews.com gave this episode a 4-star "Excellent" rating.

Pro Milone
I removed everything after ("For Milo"), since it is a. largely irrelevant to this page, which is about the Star Trek episode, not Cicero, and b. uncited analysis etc. I can cite that Moore knew who said the quote and its origin, but that's it. Connections to the finished episode are speculative.


 * It is a variant of the phrase "Silent enim leges inter arma," originally from the Roman orator 's speech "" ("For Milo"), where it formed the crux of his defense of on a politically tinged murder charge. The case hinged on the meeting of Milo, a  and leader of one political mob in Rome, and his enemy, ' and fellow mob leader . Milo was accused of ordering the killing of Clodius just after a scuffle between their retinues. Cicero had argued that Clodius had actually ordered his retinue to lay in ambush to kill Milo (in reality, the facts of the case imply that the killing had been the result of a chance collision between the two gangs as they had headed along the same road) and that Clodius' death was therefore a clear case of self-defense. In the speech, Cicero argues that a killing in self-defense cannot be considered murder, and that the laws themself do not apply to situations where one's life is at stake. "In the face of arms, the laws become silent'; they do not require you to wait for them, because the man who chooses to wait will have to pay an undeserved penalty before he can exact a deserved one." In this context, the title is referring to the tactics taken by Section 31 and Luther Sloan, who likewise see a mortal, vital, immediate threat to the Federation and do not see any value or wisdom in conducting their operations by the standard Federation rules.''

–Cleanse ( talk 00:25, August 11, 2011 (UTC)