Talk:Ancient humanoid

Vulcan
I think listing the Vulcans as a seeded world, even as phrased now, is a bad idea, it is like saying "The Original Home World of Romulans" if Vulcan was really a seeded world. For those of you whom do not know why I took out Vulcan from the list, it is because suggest that Vulcan's are a colony of that planet they were at. Whether or not you see that as concrete it is enough not to include Vulcan on the Progenitor List. --TOSrules 21:52, Nov 12, 2004 (CET)
 * But the Vulcans are the race that spawned the Romulans, who we know is one of the species created by the Progenitors. -- Krevaner 22:26, 12 Nov 2004 (CET)

suggest that Vulcan is a colony of the world from that episode. Sargon's suggest that Earth was a colony of that world is countered, but Spock responds "that would tend to explain certain gaps in Vulcan Pre history". It is also backed up in the fact that there minds can last longer in Vulcan bodies, in fact they raise the pulse rate about 20 above a Vulcan's rate. It might not be concrete, but it is enough to put doubt that world of Vulcan was seeded by the Progenitors. --TOSrules 22:53, Nov 12, 2004 (CET)

Specific examples?
I'm sorry, but was there any reference to Humans, Romulans, Cardassians, and Klingons as being specific examples of humanoid races seeded by the progenitors, or was this assumed based on the circumstances?


 * Romulans and Cardassians were definitely mentioned in the episode. However, I seem to recall very distinctly that the genetic markers common to those species were mentioned as being absent from Humans.  In fact, I think that the episode (Picard in dialogue) specifically rejected the idea that Humans were one of the races, stating that we had evolved separately.  Anyone have the script on this?Logan 5 20:44, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * The script is here:  The events from the final few minutes, specifically the bickering between the Cardassians and Klingons and later Picard's conversation with the Romulan commander, seem to imply that it was conclusively proven that at least these four species had this common ancestor. -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 22:14, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * It is implied that all 4 species have ancestory in the ancient humanoids, BUT it is speculation to leap to the conclusion that each of their homeworlds was directly seeded 4.5 billion years ago. Do we even know that klingons evolved on Qo'noS, or anything on the prehistory of Cardassia-prime, or even what the Sargon's race involvement supposedly was to the prehistory of Vulcan. I believe it should not be part of the main text of the article to claim this seeding, as it is speculation. --Pseudohuman 09:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Source of name?
Does anyone have a source on the name for this race? I usually refer to them as the "Progenitors," but as far as I remember, they weren't called anything specific in. I know the remainder of TNG and all of Voyager didn't really mention anything further; did DS9 ever touch on them? If not, maybe a move to something like ancient humanoids or something else would be more descriptive and appropriate. -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 22:14, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I don't recall anybody calling them anything in paticular. –  THOR 09:51, 10 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * The aldean call 'them' the progenitors byut we don't see them. There is no reason, IMHO, to say that the two episodes refer to the same species. --Rami 23:07, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * No, you're right, Rami, for the progenitors to have created the Custodian, the device would have to be billions of years old. Chances are, the Aldean Progenitors were not the same as the Progenitors.  This is also discussed at Talk:Progenitor.  Zsingaya  Talk 12:39, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * I removed this phrase:


 * "The Progenitors were also responsible for constructing the Custodian on the planet Aldea several centuries prior to 2364. "


 * This is because, in my opinion, there is no evidence to link the Aldeans with this species, only known as the Progenitors. It is far more likely, that the Aldeans were talking about a much more recent civilisation who settled their world centuries ago.  Zsingaya  Talk 22:37, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)

"real world" explanation
I've always viewed this as a "trek world" explanation for the "real world" problem of having only humans who can be actors. 69.199.55.143 18:26, 5 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * It does raise another question, too: How many of the obviously non-humanoid species (such as Insectoid and Aquatic Xindi, the Antedeans, or the Trill hosts/symbionts) DO have this same common ancestry, but evolved into weird forms? I suppose that'll have to remain a hypothetical one. - Spatula 21:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Doesn't the Deep Space Nine relaunch say that the Founders were also created by them, thus explaining why Salome Jens' characters look alike? -- Excelsior 21:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't know, but it sound's quite interesting. Although my personal guess would have been that the Changelings evolved seperatly and could be as ancient as the Ancient Humanoids themselves. --Trent Easton 10:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha I'm reading the book at the moment! The Founders believe they were creaated by something called the Progenitor wich in their believe was also a shapeshifting species. And they sent out the hundred to find it. ~ Trent _ Easton  ~ talk 16:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * confirms that the changelings were once solids, although it isn't specified that they were humanoid. It is possible the changelings have the same common ancestry, but it's all speculation. --MikeRS 09:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Ronald D. Moore note
Can anyone provide a cite for Ronald Moore's statement that these are the Preservers? -- (71.154.15.142)


 * "Writer Ronald D. Moore has stated that these humanoids were, in fact, the Preservers."


 * I am removing this note. It has gone without citation for 8 months. If someone can cite it, feel free to put it back. --OuroborosCobra talk 10:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Re-added with citation, but he was actually not definitive on their identity.– Cleanse 10:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Have added note that Moore's statement directly conflicts with the message of the ancient humanoids themselves, who stated they explored the galaxy and found no other lifeforms like themselves. This at least strongly implies that they found no other intelligent life and therefore they cannot be the Preservers.-robertp6165, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a nitpick, and not even true. All we know is that at the time of this recording there was no other intelligent life, but who knows how long this race was around. Certainly long enough to become far more advanced than the races we normally see. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:32, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not much of a stretch to think that these guys could still be around a few centuries later checking up on their work. - 19:38, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with those theories is that the ancient humanoid message was left behind about 4.5 BILLION years ago, not merely a "few centuries" ago. The Amerindian tribes which were found by U.S.S. Enterprise on the planet Amerind in the episode  most likely were moved there sometime between the 16th to 19th centuries C.E. While I suppose it's not totally impossible for a species to have a lifespan that long, it would be extremely unlikely. No other species...not even the Q...seem to claim for their species a lifespan anywhere near as long.  If they do, please point it out. robertp6165, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It may be a problem, but all we can really say is what is citable. What Moore said is citable. That's it.  We are not here to pick apart comments that the production staff make.  Moore mostly stated that he created the one with the idea in mind that the two were the same.  That's it.  Nothing more. -- sulfur 21:41, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Worlds Seeded
Pseudohuman removed Cardassia Prime, Qo'noS and Vulcan as not being supported by the episode dialogue. Should I point out that was the idea of the entire episode - namely, that most, if not all, of Trek's humanoid races were related? I don't recall it ever said that every planet seeded had part of the message, or conversely that it was only planets with the message that were seeded. My impression from the episode was that at the very least the races involved in "the chase" were seeded: namely Cardassians, Klingons, and Romulans. They were indeed all addressed by the Ancient humanoid, and the ending dialogue does nothing to dissuade the idea that the three other races were seeded as well. It is certainly very heavily implied. – Cleanse 10:00, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The holomessage was not an interactive one, it had no idea what races would show up to hear it or who it was addressing. Similar thing occured with Losira when a similar message adressed humans as "my fellow kaladans" in "That which survives". I just think it's speculation to simplify that these planets were directly seeded when we don't know that for sure. --Pseudohuman 10:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to admit that in my opinion the Cardassians, Vulcans, and Klingons were one of the seeded planets by the Progenitors, but Memory Alpha isn't a place for opinions. I'd never really considered his point of view before I read what Pseudohuman had to say, but now that I have I find it difficult to argue against him.  Implication, regardless of how heavy, seldom has a place on Memory Alpha.  There is really just as much reason to think the Kayzon, and the Vorta are "seed" planets as are Klingon, and Cardassian.  Are the Kayzon, and Cardassian "seed" planets?  In my opinion yes.  That was the point of the episode.  But they didn't mention the Kayzon, and they didn't mention the Klingon.  The Klingons saw an opportunity for power, and jumped.  Canon requires Memory Alphas position 'to be as simple as that.  Hossrex 10:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The article should at least state that it is highly likely the three planets mentioned above were seeded - that was the point of the episode after all. It was no coincidence the writers placed the Federation's big three humanoid opponents together watching the message. Likewise, the end dialogue with the Romulans, Cardassians, and Klingons was in such a way that confirmed the essential truth of the notion. We should respect the clear intention of the episode and at least list the three planets. – Cleanse 10:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Why should any article on Memory Alpha state more then was implicitly seen on screen? It was the "point" of the episode that all humanoid races were seeded.  If we're going to make that leap in logic, why mention any specific races?  Why not just say "all" were seeded?  That is the "point" isn't it?  Specifically regarding the intentions of the Cardassians, and Klingons in this episode, their status as being/not-being seeded had nothing to do with their involvement.  They were along for the ride because they expected the puzzle to reveal a weapon.  There was no specific mention of anything regarding the Cardassians or Klingons other than that.  The end dialog of the episode implied nothing more than that an ancient race of space travelers seeded planets.  No mention of which planets were, or weren't seeded.  If we're to respect the clear intention of the episode by mentioning those three planets, why stop there?  Do you believe the Progenitors seeded every inhabited planet in the Galaxy?  If so, why mention any specifically?  Do you believe the Progenitors seeded many, but not all planets in the galaxy?  If so, why assume the four races taking part in the climax were from those planets which were seeded?  You're making assumptions, and inferences.  While they're assumptions I happen to personally agree with, they're no less assumptions.  I can assume, and infer lots of things about lots of episodes.  Should all my assumptions, and inferences be listed on Memory Alpha?  Hossrex 10:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm making no assumptions that are not clearly suggested by the episode. Nor did I suggest that we list all humanoids as seeded by the Ancient Humanoids, just the ones in the ep. Also note that I'm arguing that they should be noted as "likely" or "possibly" seeded, which is indeed what the episode suggests.

Let me put it this way - it's not canon that they were seeded, but it is canon that these three worlds were considered to have been possibly seeded. A statement about any other race would indeed have no canon basis, as they were not referred to specifically in the episode. – Cleanse 11:07, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Please quote the sections of the episode that imply the Klingons/Cardassians/Romulans as a seed race, and not simply interested in a source of great power. Being along for the chase for a new energy source/weapon in no way implies they were necessarily a seed race.  You repeatedly say we should include the Klingons because that was the whole point of the episode, but I repeatedly say the whole point of the episode was that ALL humanoid races were seeded.  Which line of dialog are you using to support your belief that the Klingons should be specifically mentioned, and not any of the other Humanoid races we've ever seen on Star Trek.  Specifically why are you making the assumption that all the races taking part in the chase were from seed planets?  You keep saying they are, but you never explain why you believe this.  If you could provide a line from the episode to prove your point, it would end this discussion very quickly.  I'm not asking for something even as cut and dry as "We Klingons are from planets that were seeded".  I'm just asking for some line of dialog that implies more directly that they were seeded, instead of simply having heard of Professor Galen's work, and decided they couldn't take the chance to let a new weapon fall into the Romulans/Cardassians/Federations hands.  If the best you can say is to admit your point isn't canon, I'm not sure you're going to have your way.  Hossrex 22:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you're still failing to note the difference between it being raised as a possibility and being a fact. I never said it was a fact - it was not. But the four races that came considered the possibility that they may have in fact been seeded.

My point is that these four races, on screen, considered that they may have been among those seeded. Their intention for joining in the chase is irrelevant. Certainly the Romulans considered that they may have been seeded: "It would seem that we are not ... completely dissimilar after all, in our hopes, or in our fears.". Those three races considered it a possibility they were seeded. That's ALL I want the article to say. On screen, X Y Z considered they may have been seeded. In contrast, there is no screen evidence that anyone thought the Kazon, Vorta et al. They should be left out.

This is just like Spock's theory about Sargon's people. It is not canon that Sargon's people seeded Vulcan. But it is canon that some considered that they may have. As such, Spock's theory gets noted on the page, but we don't say it was a fact. That's all I want here.

I really have no problem with Pseudohuman's edit to the Romulan article, which raises the possibility without commenting further. Something like that is all I want lol! – Cleanse 01:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Romulan line you quoted is enough to shut me up (seriously). :)  I'm not trying to be unreasonable, I just want to make sure we get accurate canonical information.  I'd hope thats what we all want.  In my opinion that line from the Romulans not only confirms that they (at least the Vulcans) were a seed race, but since it was a general statement made towards the Klingons, Cardassians, and Humans...  it would seem the Romulans at least thought those three were seed races.  It wouldn't make any sense for them to have said that line if they didn't know the Klingons were also seed races.  Good ears Cleanse.  Hossrex 22:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I love MA how we can have such huge arguments over the smallest thing - it shows how ridiculously accurate we try to be. :-) It's hardly unreasonable to demand proof. And good thinking by the way Pseudohuman for bringing up this issue.

Well, I wouldn't say that we know for sure that they're seed races, but the 3 races think it possible, if not likely. Unless Pseudohuman or someone else objects, I'll put a short note into the article to that effect. Something like "Other planets that were possibly seeded include Qo'noS, Vulcan and Cardassia Prime" – Cleanse 23:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Re, being supported in dialogue, I think the disgust and contempt that the Cardassian and Romulans spoke with regarding the notion that they may be related to other species suggests, that at least in their minds, the ancient hologram was saying their worlds were seeded. Can anyone provide the exact lines from that scene (the one at the end, right after Salome does her big rant)? --- Jaz 00:10, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Jaz the script is at . I for one think it's still unnecessary speculation. But an accurate backgound note like "If the plot of "The Chase" was simplified down to the point of not allowing for other numerous possibilities for the origins to the Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian races on the worlds they habited prior to becoming spacefaring races, the primordial seas of Qo'noS, Vulcan and Cardassia Prime could have also been directly seeded by the ancient humanoids." would be an acceptable compromise. --Pseudohuman 00:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ouch. How about "If we watch the episode with blindfolds on, we can ignore the obvious implications that the three races considered that they may have been seeded." :-)

The script you linked contains many implications that what being said is at least likely:

In the middle of the humanoid's speech:

"After a few uneasy, guilty glances -- they know it wasn't so peaceful and cooperative."

At the end of the speech:

"Everyone stares at each other, lowering their weapons... There's a sense that something magical could take place, a melting away of all differences and conflicts in a new spirit of fellowship"

Then there's the following comments:

Ocett: The very notion. That Cardassians could have anything in common with Klingons. It turns my stomach.

Beverly to Picard: If it hadn't been for you, Jean-Luc, [Galen's] dream to solve that puzzle would never have been realized. You gave him a wonderful legacy...

Picard to Beverly: It would've been a more fitting legacy if the message had not fallen on deaf ears.

(which has the script note: A reaction, clearly, that wasn't present on the planet's surface)

Romulan Captain: It would seem that we are not completely dissimilar after all...in our hopes or in our fears...

(Script note: A long moment as the Romulan struggles with the words.

Captain: Well, then. Perhaps one day...

(Script note: The Romulan seems to have gone as far as he can go with this sentiment.)

I can attest that the above plays out as suggested in the script. Even taking only the statements by the Romulan Captain and Picard, it is clear that both believe it is true that the races were seeded by the humanoid. As such, their belief should be noted in the article. I strongly urge you to consider that this is very much analogous to Spock's theory about Sargon's people - it's not necessarily true - but certainly a possibility raised in canon. – Cleanse 00:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Pseudohuman said: "If the plot of "The Chase" was simplified down to the point of not allowing for other numerous possibilities for the origins to the Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian races on the worlds they habited prior to becoming spacefaring races, the primordial seas of Qo'noS, Vulcan and Cardassia Prime could have also been directly seeded by the ancient humanoids."  I'm not sure you know what a script note is.  Hossrex 07:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Wh? Hossrex, who are you addressing? I think we all know what a script note is...

Care to elaborate? – Cleanse 12:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm.. I'm not sure we are arguing over the same thing here. I whole heartedly believe with you that all the races in the ep have come to be because of the seed code. And that all are related in the same way is the point of the whole thing. All script notes and premises point to that conclusion. The only thing that isn't stated anywhere in Star Trek Canon is: Are these planets where the races became spacefaring the actual worlds where the evolution of their species began. If we knew nothing of Romulan origins, watching this episode alone would lead us to think that they must have evolved from the primordial sea of Romulus. As nothing stated in this episode leads us to think they are from anywhere else, but we full well know they didn't begin evolution there, because this episode doesn't exist in a vacuum. A statement that this episode PROVES the origins of the races CONNECTED to those particular planets is the ONLY thing that I have a problem with and the reason I deleted the references to the PLANETS (not the races) as assumptions. Please by all means add a note that "Other species that propably originate from seeded primordial seas include Klingons, Vulcans and Cardassians." just leave the planets out of it, okay? --Pseudohuman 12:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Was that really the problem? Wow. Much ado about nothing then...

Hossrex and I used the planets/species interchangeably, and from rereading our argument, I think we construed you as being against even suggesting that the species was seeded, except that we were initially on different sides of whether we agreed with that or not. And rereading what you stated above under the first heading, you did indeed say that the species involved were seeded, but not necessarily directly. As such, I profusely apologise for this long-winded and pointless debate.

By all means, I'm very happy to leave the planets out of it. Nor is there any problem just listing the species. – Cleanse 13:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Happily agreed. Hossrex 21:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Speculation

 * It is possible that most or all of the humanoid species encountered in the galaxy could have a common ancestry to this species, as the extent of the seeded planets may extend throughout the four quadrants. It is not clear however which planets were actually directly seeded by this species, and where the seed code was introduced later on to the environment by other species or events. Although the program was assembled from planets in a relatively small area of galactic space, the program fragments may have been duplicated in other regions as insurance against premature extinctions.

speculation &mdash; Morder 21:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Founder?
How do we know that the Ancient Humanoids aren't the Founders (disregarding that both species look like Salome Jens!)? Although the Founders aren't necessarily humanoid, their scientists could easily have spread the coded humanoid DNA fragments in a pattern around the galaxy. The fact that the Founders sent infant changelings across the galaxy would seem to corroborate their interest in science and discovery, especially given that they were sent to locations like Bajor and Varala (not worlds seeded by the Ancient Humanoids). We also know from the Vorta and Jem'Hadar that the Founders have created and modified species through advanced genetics before. Next, there is the issue of how the species could have remained relatively the same over 5 billion years of evolution. (Now, I don't personally believe in hopeful-monster evolution, but since it is recognized in Star Trek canon, it's worth mentioning.) The Female Changeling stated that once her species was bound to a single form, and so perhaps when the Ancient Humanoids seeded these worlds, it was the part of ancient history when the Founders were humanoid monoforms. Finally, the Ancient Humanoid didn't mention the name of her species, which seems to be the style of the Founders, who are so called because they originated the Dominion, not because that was a name for their species (the Female Changeling said that "changeling" was a derogatory term coined by humanoids that was eventually reclaimed in a positive way by the Founders themselves). Rather, the Ancient Humanoid wanted her species to be known simply for its existence, which is similar to the complex of superiority and anonymity used by the Founders. Thoughts? Jonvs 19:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's more likely the Founders evolved from a humanoid species seeded by these guys. They might be the Q, the Douwd, the Organians, Trelane's parents, God, who knows. Although I've always believed the Q theory, it isn't our job to speculate on what might've happened to the species (who most likely were intended to have gone extinct).--Tim Thomason 19:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok so this is jumping in a bit later but to answer your question: From what i understand, the ancient humanoids, unlike the Changelings, wanted to give something to the world, leave behind a legacy of themselves, so they spread the "seed" (DNA) across the galaxy in the hope that one day all these species would come together in brotherhood and put the pieces of the puzzle together, realizing that they are all coming from the same place etc. The Changelings, on the other hand, are a vicious, genocidal race that decided to instigate an interstellar war causing the deaths of billions of worlds and species simply because they "dont like" solids and see them as nothing more than inferior insects to be crushed under their superior hands. The Changelings wanted galactic dominion at all costs because they didnt "trust" the solids. The ancient humanoids were the exact opposite.


 * Personally I think it is just really a bad story line in and of itself - the whole Dominion arc which is essentially about a race that wants to dominate or else annihilate an entire galaxy based on no good reason really other than "we dont like them" (uh huh, makes total sense)- but that is beside the point. However, I think it is fairly safe to say - without venturing into too deep of absurd speculation - that the changelings and ancient humanoids are not and could not be the same. That would be completely internally inconsistent.  – Distantlycharmed 02:29, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a rather unfair characterization of the Changelings. It is made clear that the Changelings have been, in the past, the subjects of often genocidal mistreatment by the "solids," and the reason they founded the Dominion was to impose order on what they saw as the chaos of the humanoid societies which had formerly persecuted them, and to ensure that no humanoid society got back into a position to persecute the Changelings again. It was more a matter of what they perceived to be needed for their own self-preservation, rather than simply a case of "we don't like them." Indeed, one could look at it as similar to the likely reaction of parents presented with an incorrigible and violently dangerous child who has already murdered his grandparents, and made clear his intention to murder his parents. So the hypothesis that the Changelings COULD be the ultimate evolution of the Ancient Humanoids is not something we can dismiss out of hand, even if their behavior was reprehensible in the extreme.


 * That being said, however, there is no canon information from which we can confirm or deny the hypothesis. –  Robertp6165 00:22, March 27, 2011 (UTC)