Talk:George Kirk (alternate reality)

Images
I noticed the images of George Kirk on this page seem to have a high level of red in them, with poor colour balance! Anyone got images that could be subsituted for these ones? -- WormholeAlien 13:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is an issue with one editor's uploads. I'll try and replace them where possible. -- Michael Warren | Talk 13:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, clearer pictures should make the page much more aesthetically pleasing! :) -- WormholeAlien 13:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Sleeves
Anyone catch the sleeves of George's uniform? Stripe(s)? -- Captain MKB 03:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He has 2 stripes on his sleeve. One thick and one thin. Thicker one on the lower part. &mdash; Morder 03:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That would make him a lieutenant commander... but dialogue specifically referred to him as a lieutenant. (See Kirk's Academy hearing; Spock refers to Kirk's father as "Lieutenant George Kirk"). Looks like another costume error... unless they were going by the ENT ranking, which means he would be a lieutenant junior grade. --From Andoria with Love 04:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How many times has Data been called Lieutenant? &mdash; Morder 04:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the term of address for a Lieutenant Commander is rarely "Lieutenant Commander." It is usually "Commander," but Star Trek has just as often said "Lieutenant." --OuroborosCobra talk 04:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Not quite "just as often", but it is a frequent Trek mistake. I think the 2230s ranks might be taken better as unrelated to previous or latter systems, because of the oddity of the two examples -- someone rewatched the film and noted Robau also had two stripes when I asked them, but I haven't verified this. Part of me wants to say that George would probably be LTCMDR to be XO of a ship that size, but this relies on thinking he would be a LTCMDR who is subordinate to someone who is either a CMDR or "full captain". If we bring the stripes in comparison with later systems, it would seem that George is only one rank below Robau who wore the same amount of stripes in possibly the CMDR (two full stripes) of later systems. The sheer number of crew involved discourage me from thinking of Robau as being less than a fully-ranked captain. -- Captain MKB 06:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a survey ship - might not require a full captain... &mdash; Morder 06:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Where is this survey ship coming from, now? Not that I'm disagreeing, Deep Space 9 obviously had thousands onboard, and it started with a Commander. --OuroborosCobra talk 07:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering we're talking about a non-canon possibility of what Robau is I'm stating a non-canon (background note from StarTrek.com?) item about the Kelvin :) &mdash; Morder 07:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

All this is nebulous until I get a good look at Robau's sleeve -- the camerawork seems designed to thwart this, but I'm hoping it will be a familiar insignia -- since we are dealing with the possibility of Kirk being a LT or LTCMDR and also the possibility of Robau being LT CMDR, CMDR or CAPT... kinda nebulous... -- Captain MKB 19:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can trust my statement Captain MKB - it is exactly how I stated. &mdash; Morder 19:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks~! I had even forgotten it was you who told me that. I'm wondering if Robau had two stripes the same size or not.

Also, just on CMDR Sisko & DS9, in the first year, DS9 only had a population of 300 according to what O'Brien told Tosk. -- Captain MKB 19:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, just as I said above. One was thick the other was thin with the thick one at the end of the sleeve. As for the population of 300 - I would have to say that must only include starfleet officers as the station is huge...or just too new to have the 1000's it must have had. &mdash; Morder 19:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In behind the scenes images, such as this one, Robau's insignia can be seen. It's composed of three stripes, the middle of which is thin, like the other captains seen in the movie. George Kirk's insignia can similarly be verified in behind the scenes images (such as this one) as the standard lieutenant commander insignia.--Columbia clipper 17:39, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

George and Winona Kirk origination
Both the George Kirk and Winona Kirk articles state that the origination of these names came in the TOS novel Final Frontier, published in 1988. However the TOS novel Enterprise: The First Adventure contains these names and was published in 1986. Does anybody know anything about this? I wanted to ask around before considering any edits to these pages.

--Tendonstrength 20:26, 12 August 2009 (UTC)tendonstrength


 * According to _Star Trek: Voyages of Imagination: The Star Trek Fiction Companion_ by Jeff Ayers, "Diane [Carey] received a call from her editor requesting that she write the story of the launch of the Starship Enterprise and her first mission under Robert April. She said, 'A few days layer I got a call asking that I fold in the character of George Kirk. of course, my response was, "Who the heck is George Kirk?" Well, apprently this was James Kirk's father.'" So while the names of Jim's parents come from McIntyre's _Enterprise: the First Adventure_, the history and character of George Kirk comes primarily from this novel and its sequel _Best Destiny_. Also, the ST:XI screenwriters have acknowledged in interviews that specifically Carey's _Best Destiny_ influenced the characterisation of Jim Kirk in screenplay.


 * -- Ljconstantine 03:25, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

.04 or "zero-four"

 * Died: 	Post-2265 (prime reality),
 * 2233 (stardate "2233-zero-four") (alternate reality)

What the heck? It seems rather obvious that Robau's statement of "2233 zero four" was intended to refer to 2233.04; I can't see any reason why we would want or need to have it spelled out here when there's not really any ambiguity. I didn't want to just revert the edit that changed this not long ago for fear of starting an edit war, so I figured I'd float this around a bit to get some consensus first. -Mdettweiler 01:12, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, it's rather pointless. revert it at your leisure. &mdash; Morder (talk) 01:19, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Done. -Mdettweiler 01:27, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Division
The screen caps seen here show he is wearing the color grey instead of blue, which might be operations. So was he the First officer or just the senior ranking officer on the bridge at the time? - Archduk3:talk 12:54, October 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no reason why a first officer couldn't be in the operations division. After all, Spock was in the sciences division and he was most unequivocably the first officer. -Mdettweiler 14:05, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

That' true, I just want to know if grey was the operations color, or if it was sciences. - Archduk3:talk 14:16, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Page split
I think it would be a good idea to split the page between realities, if only to make the sidebar legible. - Archduk3:talk 09:19, November 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Since we know a little bit more about George from the prime reality than we do about his Kelvin crew mates, that may not be a bad idea. Having said that, I don't have a problem reading the sidebar. --From Andoria with Love 09:40, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem either, it just seems to me that all the prime/alternate tags needed for it to be correct would really confuse someone who hasn't seen the movie; and after wrapping their head around the information on the page, may not want to. - Archduk3:talk 10:09, November 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I see somebody just split this page into separate ones for prime and alternate counterparts. This was done without any discussion, as far as I can tell, and leaves the prime reality guy missing a lot of information from the AR movie that does apply to him as well. I'd recommend that either we undo this (leaving things just as sections on one page--that was working pretty well before), or if we're going to keep this, at least heavily touch up the prime reality guy's page to include the information it's now missing. -Mdettweiler 20:57, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Whomever did it might have taken the above comments as the discussion, although such a decision being made after four days seems a little rushed. If we are going to keep them separate, we do need to make sure all the info is in the right places.--31dot 22:11, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree there should have been more discussion on this, but all that was missing from the George Kirk (prime) page was his service on the Kelvin, which took place prior to the time split. Everything on Prime Kirk's page now is currently all we know about that man from that reality. --From Andoria with Love 22:46, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, okay. I was mainly thinking of the sidebar, which included a bunch of info that we previously didn't have that does apply to the prime guy. Probably the first picture would work OK, too, though to be technically correct it would probably be best to get a picture of George from the movie prior to the moment when the Narada showed up. -Mdettweiler 23:12, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Did some touch ups that were mentioned above. I would disagree about the page working well before, hence my suggestion; but do agree that a few more votes either way would have been nice. (I also take it that no one is eager to split the Winona Kirk page then?) - Archduk3:talk 23:36, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

question
Other then his death on the USS Kelvin (the point of the new time line) both the prime and alternate Kirk Sr. is the same person both had the same life, history, rank ect. why is this called = George Kirk (alternate reality) if the point of change is his death? -- marc
 * Because half of this article is about his death or after. - 21:12, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Two sons?
So... I have to ask, why is George Samuel Kirk listed as one of Kirk's sons? Because aside from deleted scenes and original intention (which last I knew, wasn't used on MA as canon sources), there's no mention of this other brother what so ever. Was "Sam" (as brother James) called him) said to be older in the original continuity? Because if no age was given, I feel it's a bit of a leap to suggest (again, as the scenes were deleted) that George Kirk is the father of two children. Though, this is probably just like the argument I made about Spock and Sybok, I still felt the question should be raised. --Terran Officer 21:17, September 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point. I don't believe that it was ever stated that Kirk's brother was older. Therefore, saying that he exists in the alternate reality seems like speculation to me. -Angry Future Romulan 21:20, September 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Since no one has responded in a couple of days, I'm gonna go ahead and take it out. Someone can re-add it later if canon evidence is found that George was older than Jim. -Angry Future Romulan 18:46, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

I was debating on whether or not this should be done yet, or if I should say anything further, thanks for doing it. Terran Officer 20:27, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

STID appearance
Sorry, but when does George Kirk appear in Star Trek Into Darkness? I don't remember him being in that film at all. Rob Elkton (talk) 17:05, May 23, 2013 (UTC)