Talk:Occupation of Bajor

FA nomination (12 Oct - 21 Oct 2005, Successful)
I tried to arrange the pictures on there because I wanted to make my first nomination a good one. As I read it over, I couldn't think of anything other than some minor details (which I added) that should be on this page and isn't. Weyoun 00:36, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment. You might've looked down that "The Collaborator and seen where Ben said: Hopefully this isnt like the occupation article where someone was working on it but not ready. Then again, it's pretty close to FA status. You (and the Vedek, judging from the page history) did a good job with the pictures. I'm not going to oppose it since I can't think of anything off the top of my head and don't have time to go through it with a fine-toothed comb. I'm sure someone will find something though. --Schrei 02:36, 12 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the sections on Dukat and the resistance are short, but they have their own articles. There isn't really much more about labor camps that's not on Genocide, and I think the Terok Nor section sums it up well. It has the perfect amount of detail without being overly long. Weyoun 07:27, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * Support. I just looked over this and I feel it's come a remakably long way from early revisions of the article.  I believe it's complete and very well-written and informative.--Starchild 03:16, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. I cannot think of any more information that should be added. It's well written, very informative with well-chosen illustrations. Good work! Ottens 16:59, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Support I remember a few months ago a decision on Ten Foward to make a community effort on this article.  That's exaclty what happened.  The history list is huge.  Tons of people colaberated for this article.  This demonstrates the entire purpose of MA and is clearly one of the best examples of our community work.  Mabe we shoould make some sort of of collum like wikipedia's collaberation of thw week.  That's essenatialy what this is, just unofficaly on Ten foward.  Everyone should support this and it should be article of the week next week.  Tobyk777 23:50, 13 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. I too looked at the edit history and found that Schrei deserves credit for kicking this into motion. As one of his edit summaries stated, "just trying to get the information down - it can be organized later." We helped with the cosmetics, and I think it's perfect now, so stop being modest and support the article already! Toby: check "Memory Alpha:Refit of the Week" if you're interested in future collaboration. Vedek Dukat 02:35, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Okay, point taken. It does look really good, and I can see what Weyoun means about the sections being fine as they are. :) --Schrei 04:08, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think that some of these sections should be made into sub-sections and the content better organized. Definitely deserves to be an FA based on completeness and content, just think it could be slightly better organized. Logan 5 14:14, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. That's one of the things I was unsure about, so I'd welcome any help/suggestions. My original plan would have involved splitting the "aftermath" section and possibly rearranging some of the others. Not sure if that's what you were referring to though. --Schrei 14:41, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, my immediate impression is that Life During the Occupation should have an intro area, with the bulk of that entry put under some sub-head, and then Labor Camps and Terok Nor added to that LDtO as sub-heads. Then Aftermath and Post-Occupation made into sub-heads of Cardassian Withdrawal.  But those are just suggestions.  I'm also not sure where Gul Dukat goes...clearly important to the occupation so maybe under LDtO as a sub-head since he was the titular head of the whole thing. Mirror-Universe is fine as its own I think. Logan 5 14:51, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Dukat does need to be integrated... somewhere. Or maybe the section headings should be changed? It's hard because, chronologically, they overlap. Vedek Dukat 20:57, 14 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Actually, it looks good the way it is right now. You have the prelude (I split that off actually), then life during it, labor camps, terok nor (built to facilitate ore from the camps), the resistance that popped up, Dukat (who became prefect when it was already a mess), then the withdrawal that happened under Dukat's command, the aftermath, and stuff that happened after the occupation. Coke 20:53, 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Genocide
I think it's unfair to characterize the occupation of Bajor as a "genocide". The most liberal estimate (one coming directly from someone with a vested interest in making the Cardassians out to be as bad as possible at the time) in the DS9 series (IIRC) was 10 million killed, in a 50 year occupation of an entire planet.

Now if we consider that reasonably to the historic genocides in human history, it just doesn't stand up. The Holocaust of the Jews by Nazi Germany, for example, exterminated 6 million people (a somewhat less liberal and more accepted estimate), when targetting an ethnic minority group over but a small percentage of the planet.

Is there any reason to believe Bajor is significantly less populace than early 21st century earth? If one considers, for instance, the occupation of Iraq by the United States. Now, consider that:

1) Iraq is about 1/250th of the population of the entire planet.

2) Iraq has been occupied for only 2 years

Now lets assume we consider Iraq to be a non-genocide situation (has anyone anywhere made the claim that this particular occupation is a genocide? I can't find an example and I study that for a living):

A liberal estimate (from 6 months ago I might add) from a human rights group was 100,000 deaths. At that rate the Cardassians would have killed over 625 million Bajorans in a 50 year occupation (assuming a starting population of 6 billion, as modern earth).

Even if we assume the very conservative estimates of 15,000 killed (which come from the occupiers themselves), a comparable Cardassian occupation would've killed just under 100 million.

Unless we assume that Bajor is very small and contained only about 25 million people at the time the occupation started, it is unreasonable to paint the occupation as any sort of genocide. It pales in comparison not only to the genocides of human history, but even to some of the less brutal occupations of modern history.

In fact, over the course of 50 years most human governments have proportionally killed more of their own citizenry than the Cardassians did under this "brutal" occupation. In modern society Gul Dukat might well have been elligible for a Nobel Peace Prize.


 * You actually had me nodding my head in agreement until you said that in modern society Gul Dukat might have been eligible for a Nobel Peace Prize-- that's significantly overstating the case.


 * I don't think the Bajoran Occupation's primary goal was to commit genocide, as the Cardassians were far more interested in enslaving the Bajorans and raping their planet than they were in killing every single Bajoran. But certainly there were instances of genocide that took place during the Occupation.


 * The Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights defines genocide in a way that could lead credence to the view that the Occupation itself was a genocide...


 * In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


 * (a) Killing members of the group;


 * (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;


 * (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


 * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;


 * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


 * Note that it says that these acts must be committed with intent to destroy a particular group in whole or in part. And the Cardassians need not necessarily have committed all five of the acts to qualify-- any one of them would do.  We know for a fact that A, B, and C were committed by the Cardassians, and it wouldn't strain my imagination to believe the Cardassians committed D and E as well.


 * There isn't necessarily a magic number that makes it a genocide, I don't think. In any event, even given the number of "only" 10 million Bajorans killed in a 50-year time period, that's still 200,000 Bajorans killed every year, or 547 every day.  This translates to one Bajoran dying every 2.47 minutes.  And all of them were killed by Cardassians directly, Cardassian collaberators, or as a result of conditions imposed by Cardassians.  I doubt even the most liberal estimate would add deaths not caused in any fashion by Cardassians.


 * In some respects, comparing it to numbers from Earth, the death toll seems disproportionately low. But show me a tribe in Rwanda that ever controlled the entire world.  In terms of sheer scope, the Bajoran Occupation (encompassing an entire sector of space) was larger than any occupation in Earth's history.


 * And while the #1 priority of Cardassia was to rob Bajor of every resource the Cardassians could use, they certainly killed a *lot* of Bajorans doing so. Ekedolphin 02:17, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * Instead of arguing the merits of the word, you guys could just look at, where Kira says nothing justifies genocide and the Cardassian says, "What you call genocide, I call a day's work." Can you say duh? --BajoranBrouhaha 04:10, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * The numbers of dead do seem awfully low when you look at the numbers of people killed over a 1.5 to 2 year period in Iraq alone from 2003 to 2005 now that I think about it: Looking at those numbers you'd have around 66,666 to 100,000 deaths every year for a country the size of Iraq and multiplying that by 60 you'd theoretically have a death toll of 399,960 to 600,000; in 2003 the population of Earth was around 6,310,549,064 and Iraq's population was 27,499,638


 * For simplicity, I'd prefer to simply use 6.315 billion and 27.5 million respectively and that produces roughly a global population 229.64 that of Iraq: This effectively yields a death toll of 91,846,814 over a 60 year occupation.


 * Admittedly, I don't know what size Bajor was compared to earth or what the density of population was. It looked a bit sparse compared to earth, but that could be just one part of the planet.


 * As for the objective of genocide, it would seem that it varied from different people in the Cardassian government: One definite issue was to basically draw up every last natural resource they could from the planet for their own needs and if they had to grind people under their heels to do it, so much the better; admittedly Dukat said that some people felt they should have killed every last Bajoran there (I don't know if that was from the outset, or towards the end with them unable to control the Bajoran Resistance and/or a final parting shot before leaving).


 * Dukat expressed regret about this not just in "Waltz" but earlier (might have been in "The Maquis" either part 1 or 2), though his outburst in "Waltz" was more rememberable.

69.127.45.17 03:29, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

StarTrek.com documentary
StarTrek.com made a documentary about the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. It has some useful information that probably could be included if anyone wants to take the time to do so.

This documentary is actually very well put together. It doesn't tell us anything new, but it pulls all the information together in one place. Zsingaya Talk 20:10, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Completeness
This article has so much potential to be a featured article, it doesnt mention the occupational government, comfort girls and the like , the repercussions (portion of season 1, most of season 2), the turmoil that followed , Bajoran-Cardassian relations following the occupation , the status of people like Odo , it could even mention Mullibok , and the significant parallels I forgot where it was but someone mentioned The White Man's Burden. It could be such a great article if bajor wasnt one of less popular topics, namely anything to do with big starships or battle scenes. BajoranBrouhaha 04:00, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)

There could also be a section on Kai Opaka and the importance of the Bajoran faith and of course the Bajoran Resistance and actually TALKING about the people it lists as see also. Not to mention that one lame episode where the guy thought he was the Emissary because he was stuck in the Celestial Temple for hundreds of years and he wanted the people to bring back dejaras. There could be an entire SECTION on how one might argue that the occupation made Bajor stronger, Kira even admitted it somewhere I think. BajoranBrouhaha 04:05, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I forgot, this would be completely relevant since in [{e|Call to Arms}} either Dukat or Damar said first Terok Nor, then on to Bajor or something like that, in case anyone picks this up as a project, don't forget the way the Cardassians were back with the help of the Dominion and how if the Cardassians had their way it would be Occupation Part II. The details about the Dominion in that what was it a six part story arc, those might not be as relevant but it would be totally appropriate to mention the situation, like Weyounn said, Jake kept calling the Dominion presence an occupation in his news stories, but in Weyounn's opinion it wasn't. BajoranBrouhaha


 * Ehm, it's fine that you know what's missing in this article, but why you simply edit the article instead of writing this stuff on this page?

Mirror universe
I think the mirror universe occupation should be its own article. Jaf 20:21, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf
 * The mirror occupation, like the withdrawal, is probably best placed within this article... Unless this becomes 50kb long, in which case we can always split it up. :) --Schrei 08:19, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not really about size. The mirror universe occupation is a different thing, involving powers that takes place in a different universe. Jaf 13:07, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)Jaf
 * Hmm... Good point. Could you bring this up on the peer review page? Or at least say something on the peer review? I'm not sure if it gets ignored because nobody cares about this article or they just don't care/know about peer review. --Schrei 23:52, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)

VFD archive for Cardassian Withdrawal (now a redirect)

 * Cardassian Withdrawal:
 * Essentially a far weaker version of Cardassian withdrawal found on the Occupation of Bajor page. I would prefer to see it completely gone, but would reluctantly settle for a redirect. --Alan del Beccio 07:38, 16 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * This 'nomination' somehow got removed, so I've reposted it. --Alan del Beccio 03:04, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Redirect maybe? I'm not sure how useful that would be, but given that someone created this article thinking it didn't exist, maybe we do need a redirect to prevent another misunderstanding. --Schrei 06:14, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Never mind, this was created when the occupation was a whole one paragraph, before I added... well... everything other than the intro paragraph. Still, a redirect couldn't hurt I guess. --Schrei 06:16, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete with redirect if it was referenced that way specifically onscreen. I mean if there were enough occasions where the phrase cardassian withdrawal was used specifically, then it does perhaps need a redirect. Makon 05:06, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * ARchived --Alan del Beccio 06:40, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Peer review
I do't got anything to say, I'm just doing this so people can make suggestions because this looks like it'll be featured once it's done. :o) Ben Sisqo 03:14, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Anybody have suggestions, questions, comments? Even "I hate this article" would be better than nothing. :P --Schrei 23:50, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * You probably will wish you didn't ask, because actually, I do. I'm not seeing any references to The Next Generation and I'm fairly sure there were some made (vague or otherwise) in "Ensign Ro", "Lower Decks", and "Preemptive Strike" (among others). I would consider looking into the content of those episodes, as well as. --Alan del Beccio 06:44, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I brought that up in Ten Forward, and apparently no one was interested because the only response I got was a few words of encouragement from Tobyk777. I've never watched TNG so I don't know what I'm missing (literally & figuratively). But a list of criticisms or things I'm missing is still more useful than nothing. :) --Schrei 07:26, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * I really took no interest the Bajoran B-story theme during the whole DS9 run, in fact, I always fast-forwarded through that part whenever I watched the final 10 episodes. Anyway, I haven't actually read this article yet, been kinda busy....--Alan del Beccio 07:43, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I know - I remember I watched some of the final run and I had the same reaction as you. The whole Winn/Dukat idea was annoying, but I liked a lot of the early episodes that focused on Bajor. --Schrei 07:52, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Gul Dar'heel
The information on Gul Dar'heel is incorrect. The episode Duet (eventually) reveals that the real Dar'heel died in his sleep "six years ago". Therefore, he could not have ordered the slaughter of Bajorans on the final days of the occupation. That was part of the story that Maritza made up in his attempt to get himself incarcerated on behalf of Cardassian guilt.

Historical parallels
I've read somewhere that the occupation of Bajor and Bajoran freedom fighters were also based on Hungary's Soviet occupation and the | Revolution of 1956 and that's why Bajorans have a reversed name order like Hungarians do. Ltarex 15:49, 5 Oct 2008 (CET)
 * Any idea where you read this? --OuroborosCobra talk 20:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Occupation of Bajor bears a number of similarities to real-world events. When the Occupation, as well as the Bajorans themselves, were introduced in, the Bajorans appeared to be refugees who fled their homes and lived in refugee camps, giving rise to the belief that they were intended to resemble Palestinians who had once lived in Israel. The claim that the Occupation had lasted approximately forty years would also be consistent with the period between Israel's independence (1948) and the airing of the episode (1991). As the race was developed in later episodes, however, this allusion seemed to fade.


 * The Occupation, as portrayed in later episodes, appears to have been more a metaphor for the aggression of Germany and Japan in the first half of the 20th century. Although fans often liken the Occupation to Nazi Germany's treatment of Jews, there does not appear to have been a concerted effort – with the exception of individuals such as Gul Darhe'el – to exterminate the race. Rather, the Cardassians simply viewed themselves as superior, believing the Occupation was necessary for the good of the Cardassian Empire.


 * One could thus argue the Occupation was more akin to Japan's occupation of Korea and particularly China. For example, Marritza's vivid description of how Darhe'el's men murdered the Bajoran workers is reminiscent of both Nazi Germany and the Japanese Empire, but his statements about "need [ing] your resources" and Dukat's description of the brutal massacres as "alleged improprieties" point strongly at Japan. The brutal treatment of other races under Japanese rule around the time of World War II and subsequent denial of events like the "" (the brutality of which is disputed in Japan to this day, although there was also a large degree of in post-World War II Germany) bear many similarities to the way military leaders on Cardassia were celebrated for their deeds during the Occupation while most civilians were oblivious to its true nature.


 * Another World War II parallel one might make is to the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states in 1940–41 and 1944–91. Superficially, of course, the length of these occupations is roughly the same as that of Bajor, but the parallels go much further. For instance, the resistance movements of the Baltic states were active far beyond the end of World War II. Known as the, they continued to engage the Soviet occupation forces well into the 1950s. The tactics of these actions – sabotage, assassinations of officials, and guerrilla warfare in the countryside – bears a striking resemblance to the Bajoran Resistance. However, perhaps the most interesting parallel is that of post-occupation events. Just like Bajor sought to enter into the Federation, the Baltic states were quick and eager to join  as a security measure against renewed aggression from Russia. And just like the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole created a geopolitical and strategic hot spot, so are the Baltic states strategically important to Russia, as their sovereignty severely limits Russian access to the Baltic Sea. Parallels to the ever present hostility between Bajorans and Cardassians even after the Occupation can also be made, considering the harsh laws of citizenship and official language, adopted by the post-occupation Baltic states.


 * Additionally, the Occupation bears some resemblances to European colonialism. Dukat's recollection of the Occupation in is heavily reminiscent of Kipling's "": "They couldn't see that if they had only chosen to cooperate with us, we could've turned their world into a paradise. ... We did not choose to be the superior race, fate handed us our role. The d'jarra caste system  also brings to mind British occupation of India . Like Bajor, India had a strict caste system prior to British arrival, and like the Bajorans, the Indian people officially abolished the system once colonial rule was ended.
 * The above was removed by anon so i've archived it here. It is very much original research and though very well written is not what Memory-Alpha is about &mdash; Morder 17:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Another british simialrity is the the british in ireland,they came for military and economic reasons as they raped the irish of all resourses and land which was used to feed england even during the second famine which saw at the time was exporting unbelievable amounts of livestalk and other goods while hundreds of thousands died or left, the irish mass emigration to other parts of the world  mainly england and the usa could be inspiraion to the bajorian despora in star trek also the way ireland used one of the most successful gurilla warfare ever as roughly  5000 poorly armed militia fought againts over 18000 to 23000 army regulars which came from ww1. ww1 which could be a parralel to the first federation-cardasian war. Also during the coquest and occupation, irelands population fell by 3/4 from 8 million to 2.1 million and now is still only 4.3 million

Year Length solution?
From the discrepancies in the reported length of the occupation I think it's likely Bajor has a year of around 3/4 of a terrestrial year. When the discrepancies are taken together they suggest a difference of approximately 3/4, for a shorter year, or 1 and 1/3, for a longer year. As alien characters, particularly Cardassians and Bajorans, tend to suggest a "longer" occupation and Humans, and characters talking to Humans usually give a "shorter" length of time, this favors Bajor having a shorter orbital period than Earth.

Duration of Occupation
According to this wiki-site, it states that the Occupation was approximately 50 years; according to Kira in "Emissary", she said it was 60 years. Why was there a discrepancy?69.127.45.17 02:52, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Most figures about the occupation's length are estimates; that might be the case with Kira's statement. I'm not sure at this time where the 50-year figure comes from. 31dot (talk) 03:08, August 30, 2013 (UTC)