Talk:Log

Removed link

 * http://supernovawd . netfirms . com/Stardates/stardates_and_logs.htm - List of TOS stardates and log entries.
 * The spam protection filter prevents this page to be saved with this link -- Kobi - (   ) 10:06, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Types of Logs
I found so far:
 * Captain's log
 * Enterprise log
 * Medical log
 * Ship's log
 * Captain's personal log
 * Personal log
 * Enterprise medical log
 * Log
 * Starship log
 * Station log
 * First officer's log
 * Station security log
 * Security log
 * Chief medical officer's log
 * First officer's personal log
 * Chief engineer's log
 * Doctor's personal log
 * Kathryn Janeway's personal log (good format for personal logs?)
 * Acting captain's log
 * Helmsan's log
 * Operations officer's log
 * Security chief's log
 * Tactical officer's log
 * Lieutenant Paris's personal log
 * Daily log
 * Field notes (c. 2354)
 * Ambassador's log
 * Mission record (c. 2032)
 * Delta Flyer log
 * Acting captain's personal log
 * Medical officer's log
 * Chief engineer's personal log
 * ECH log
 * Chief medical officer's personal log
 * Chief tactical officer's log
 * Enterprise starlog
 * Captain's starlog
 * Science officer's log
 * Acting captain's starlog
 * Admiral Maxwell Forrest's personal log
 * Defiant starlog
 * Second officer science log

This is a list of all "logs" referenced with entries. There are probably a bit more from TNG and DS9 (Seasons 3-7), and feel free to add any else with a citation of the first known episode. I think it would be great to have a centralized location for log entries, without stealing the thunder from some sites that show all entries. Here's the pattern:
 * Log (what a log is, list of logs)
 * Captain's log (general info on a Captain's log, list of Captain's logs)
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) (information on the Enterprise Captain's log and links to individual years)
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2266 (entries from the log if they would overcrowd the upper page)

I'll try my hand at some of these and see how it comes out.--Tim Thomason 23:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
Shouldn't log and log entry be the same article? Suggest we merge and make the latter a redirect to the former. - Intricated 00:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * From Talk:Log entry:
 * No one had anything to say about this, so articles have been merged. --From Andoria with Love 22:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the plan of "attack" on creating all of these? I can't seem to find any discussion on how this is supposed to be approached, nor why it is necessary to create ones based on the nuances of how the log is described (captain's log, acting captain's log, ship's log, etc). I see tracking these as being potentially hectic. --Alan del Beccio 19:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I started this by myself along time ago. The style (including the see alsos) is simply my own, and I wanted to somehow organize and record the log entries from the shows in an in-universe way. There was no discussion, it was something I wasted a couple of days on a year ago, and thought it would be interesting to do a couple today. There is a clear difference between many of the logs (captain's logs vs. personal vs. ship's and so on), and I don't think it's too much of a bother to assume logs should be separated based on how they are referred. One exception is my combining of "Ship's log" and "Enterprise log" when they both referred to the (probably non-Captain) log of the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701).--Tim Thomason 19:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The only discussion was my original list on Talk:Log entry, but that is it. I guess I'm still "seeing how it comes out."--Tim Thomason 19:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess it is still somewhat confusing to me in organizing, even naming conventions, because, as you said, this is essentially being made "on the fly". Perhaps subcategorizing Category:Logs by ships, in the cases of the featured ships would be easier to track all the captain's logs, personal logs and science officer logs from the same ship? --Alan del Beccio 20:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think a template idea would be better, as some cases there are not enough pages for a category. I have come up with about 11 templates that could be used to link together the Related Logs without dealing with the problem of the "See alsos."

Here's an example:

There will eventually be about 6 of those (Enterprise (NX-01), USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), Deep Space 9, USS Defiant (2370), and USS Voyager).

The other 5 ideas I have are: Logs by Type (Captain's, Ship's, Medical, Personal, Station, Military [thanks], Security, Mission record, Field notes, Permanent documentation file), Logs by Position (Ambassador, Captain, Acting Captain, ECH, First Officer, Second Officer Science, Chief Engineer, CMO, Ops, Security Chief, Chief Tactical, Science Officer, Helmsman, Medical Officer), Ship's & Station Logs (Enterprise NX-01, NCC-1701, NCC-1701-D, ISS NX-01, Defiant NCC-1764, Reliant, Voyager, Delta Flyer, Deep Space 9, perhaps some of the shuttles and Kira's interceptor), Personal Logs:

Captain's Logs:

Of course we don't want to over-templatize, as I've been known to do. I think a limit of two templates per page is nice to keep in mind. From what I can see we can subcategorize Captain's logs and Personal logs, but we probably shouldn't do it by year or ship.--Tim Thomason 18:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Somraw log
Speaking of naming conventions (it's up there), I have a question myself. I've been using what the log was called as my naming convention (eventually I'll make either make a redirect or disambig at Enterprise log if I can verify or unverify the term being used for another Enterprise), and having to go by instinct on unnamed log entries (based on the other log used in the ep, with a note, see Captain's log, Enterprise (NX-01), 2151). I was wondering what to do about a log entry from 2151 made aboard the Somraw? The entry is unlabeled. Should I make a page at (IKS) Somraw starlog or (IKS) Somraw log or even Ship's log, IKS Somraw? Just a question to be based on others opinions.--Tim Thomason 19:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

List of Logs
Don't mind this:
 * ENT:
 * Enterprise starlog
 * Captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01), 2151
 * Somraw starlog?
 * Personal log, Malcolm Reed
 * Captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01), 2152
 * Captain's personal log, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * Science officer's log, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * Chief engineer's log, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * Captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01), 2153
 * Chief medical officer's log, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * Captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01), 2154
 * Acting captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * First officer's log, Enterprise (NX-01)
 * Personal log, Maxwell Forrest
 * Captain's starlog, ISS Enterprise (NX-01)
 * ISS Enterprise starlog
 * Defiant starlog
 * Captain's starlog, Enterprise (NX-01), 2155
 * First officer's personal log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D)
 * TOS:
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2265
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2266
 * Ship's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * Medical log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2267
 * Personal log, James T. Kirk
 * Captain's log, USS Constellation
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2268
 * Captain's personal log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * Personal log, Spock
 * Medical log, USS Exeter?
 * Personal log, Starnes?
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2269
 * TAS
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2269
 * Personal log, Spock
 * Ship's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * Medical log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * First officer's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2270
 * Movies
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), mid-2270s
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), 2285
 * Starship log, USS Reliant
 * Captain's log, HMS Bounty
 * Captain's log, USS Excelsior
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A)
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2371
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-E)
 * Captain's personal log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-E)
 * TNG
 * all to be added
 * DS9
 * Station log, Deep Space 9, 2369
 * First officer's log, Deep Space 9
 * Commander's log, Deep Space 9
 * Personal log, Miles O'Brien
 * Station log, Deep Space 9, 2370
 * Medical log, Deep Space 9
 * Security log, Deep Space 9
 * Personal log, Benjamin Sisko
 * Chief medical officer's log, Deep Space 9
 * Season 3-7 to be added
 * VOY
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2371
 * First officer's log, USS Voyager
 * Personal log, Kathryn Janeway
 * Security log, USS Voyager
 * First officer's personal log, USS Voyager
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2372
 * Chief medical officer's log, USS Voyager
 * Chief engineer's log, USS Voyager
 * Personal log, The Doctor
 * Acting captain's log, USS Voyager
 * Medical log, USS Voyager
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2373
 * Helmsman's log, USS Voyager
 * Operations officer's log, USS Voyager
 * Security chief's log, USS Voyager
 * Tactical officer's log, USS Voyager
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2378 (alternate)
 * Personal log, Tom Paris
 * Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2367?
 * Captain's log, USS Endeavor
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2374
 * Personal log, Harry Kim
 * Personal log, Neelix?
 * Daily log, Seven of Nine
 * Personal log, Seven of Nine
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2375
 * Personal log, Stone
 * Personal log, Tuvok
 * Field notes, USS Raven
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2376
 * Ambassador's log, Neelix
 * Mission record, Ares IV
 * Captain's personal log, USS Voyager
 * Captain's log, Delta Flyer
 * Delta Flyer log
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2377
 * Acting captain's personal log, USS Voyager
 * Medical officer's log, USS Voyager
 * Chief engineer's personal log, USS Voyager
 * ECH log
 * Chief medical officer's personal log
 * Captain's log, USS Voyager, 2378
 * Chief tactical officer's log, USS Voyager

Log Entries removed from episodes
Who decided to remove all log entries from the episodes they belong to, and to move them to a separate page, without the episode named, and no direct link from the episode to the correct log entries?

For instance, was edited by Airtram3, with both personal logs and captain's logs removed from the article. The captain's logs were replaced with a link to the article Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2365. That page has logs for 16 different "missions", presumably representing 16 different episodes, but none of the episodes are named, and there is no easy way to match the episodes to the corresponding log entries. This is being done to a large number of episodes. The only way to tell which episode goes with with entry is an obscure link at the end of the last log entry made for each "mission". To find log entries specific to a particular episode, you have to search the entire page for the obscure back-link, and each page covers a whole year. And who came up with these mission names? Surely that's not canon. Furthermore, it appears to be assumed that every thousand stardates occur in the same calendar year, when this has not been established for certain, and when there is clear evidence in the canon to the contrary. Just because the first two digits are the same and they occurred in the same TV season does not mean that they all occurred in the same year of the 24th century.

I would think that such a major change to the structure of this wiki would require major discussion and consensus, but I do not know where that occurred. Even if that occurred, there are major problems with the way it is being carried out. --Nike 12:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't start it, Nike, I just followed suit. I initially listed the log entries on the episode page themselves. I soon found that, starting with episodes in the first year of TNG, the log entries were being moved into these pages. I noticed that it was some of the senior members who had begun the change. Why? I don't know. I did attempt to put the episode name as the header to each body of stardates; however, I was told by Cid Highwind on my page that this would be intruding the real world onto the Star Trek world. His exact words:


 * Hi again. Just to explain my changes to Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2364, which basically reverted your edits: We try to write articles from an in-universe point-of-view, that is as if written by a person in the Star Trek universe. This means that episode titles shouldn't be used as section heading, qualifier or anything in those articles. -- Cid Highwind 23:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * My entries were changed, and some other member began using the vague descriptions you now see on these pages. I felt the process was random, and as I like consistency, I updated all the TNG episodes for the first and second years, with a few third year ones thrown in. Hope this helps.--Airtram3 12:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that you started it; I was just using one of your edits as an example. I am not against having all logs in one place. However, you, and perhaps others, are breaking the associations between the episodes and the log entries. Instead of Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2365, you can put Captain's log, which will link to the correct entries.

I don't see the sense in using non-canon mission-names instead of episode names. Not everything in this wiki is in-universe POV. Things like episode articles and lists of episodes are examples; this seems like it should be another. But whatever.

The other major problem is the assignment of episodes to specific years. Unless the year is mentioned in the episode, it's fanon, not canon. And there is canonical evidence to the contrary. For example, had the stardate 54868.6, and occurred on the 315th anniversary of First Contact Day, which means that this stardate is April 5, 2378. If January 1 was stardate 54000, then April 6 would be 54263, not 54868. 41986.0 was in 2364 so 54868.6 is less than 13 years later, which would be 2367, which means that stardates cannot be predictably tied to the Gregorian calendar. So we cannot with certainty provide a canonical date for an episode unless it is actually stated. It would be better to list logs according to stardates, rather than AD years, i.e. 41000s, 42000s, etc.

As I said, I do not know if it has been discussed before, but either way, I think it should be now. --Nike 13:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you Nike. However, as I have learned, the majority rules, and the majority believes these events occurred in a single year. They also believe that the Eugenics War and Tarbolde wrote his poem in 1996, regardless of the rest of the evidence such as these events being seen as 200 years before the episode, which would place them in the mid-21st century if the original Star Trek is in the mid-23rd century. People will take what they want, and if it doesn't accord with their view of the matter, they will ignore the inconvenient bits. It's human nature after all.


 * A few thoughts, for what it's worth:


 * (1) Frankly, I don't quite understand why the log entries should be removed from individual episode entries. I have no issue with log entries being collected in an overall entry, but I don't quite see how each individual episode entry is bettered by having such intrinsic, episode-specific information removed from the episode entry. Maybe I'm missing something.


 * (2) That said, I agree that the arbitrary mission names such as "Mission to Iconia" and "Readout Anomalies" now being used on the Captain's Log page are very removed from how many would search for that information. Logically, they should be noted by episode name, like any citation, but if that's going to cause a crisis of POV, I don't know how to resolve matters to make the overall Captain's Log pages as useful as they could be. Ideas, anyone?


 * (3) In any case, if it's been decided that the text of Log Entries should indeed be removed from individual episode entries, then the link that remains in the episode entry should at least use the anchor feature to link directly to the episode-relevant subheading section. So the link in, for example, should go to the specific Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2365 and not just the general Captain's log, USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-D), 2365


 * --TommyRaiko 14:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The major problem behind all this seems to be the fact that all this "log content" might be interesting both in relation to the episode it was made in (production POV) and as a stand-alone article (in-universe, what is the content of the Captain's Log?).


 * An in-universe article about the Captain's Log shouldn't contain episode titles as headings, as that would break our POV. It shouldn't really contain years in the title either, if we can't be sure that this year even is the correct one for all entries.


 * Although I'm normally against content duplication - what about having log entries in both places, the episode article and a "Log article"? For the latter one, I would suggest headings that make use of the stardate instead of invented mission titles... -- Cid Highwind 14:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That is all good if every log entry had a stardate. Many don't. I think there are far more supplementals than actual dates. So, what do you do then? As for episodes that mention the exact date, these are few and far between. I think there have been only a handful that have done so, outside of Star Trek: Enterprise of course.--Airtram3 15:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying that every single entry should have its own section header with a stardate. My suggestion was that, if we keep the log articles as-is, we could replace the current headings (one per "mission") with a stardate and also move articles from "TITLE (2364)" to "TITLE (41000-41999)" if necessary.
 * The Table of Contents of those article would then be a chronological listing of stardates falling into each range. -- Cid Highwind 15:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Congress voted for the war in Iraq, but that does not mean it was the correct decision, nor would the current majority in Congress probably vote for it. We don't have to stick with a bad decision made by other people. Just using the proper links would go a long way. I would also vote to list by stardate, rather than non-canon year. This is Star Trek, after all, where stardates are much more common than calendar dates. (Except for Enterprise, of course.) --Nike 22:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Supplemental log
Probably could just merge with log. --Alan del Beccio 23:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, not really enough content to justify a separate page. – Cleanse 23:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Merged. --From Andoria with Love 06:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)