Talk:USS Defiant (2375)/archive

From Talk:USS São Paulo

 * The following discussions originated from the talk page for the once-separate page for the USS São Paulo.

Name/registry
It's pretty insignificant, but I was wondering: did we ever see the Sao Paolo's original registry, or the exterior of the ship with the name "Sao Paolo"? If so, does anyone know whether it was written with the tilde over the "a" (São Paolo) or not? Should the article text say São Paolo or "Sao Paolo"? --Josiah Rowe 23:15, 30 Mar 2005 (EST)


 * I recall that there was a dedication plaque and knowing the americans it is more likely that it was "Sao", but I think we could very well use the correct spelling, as it is done with the USS Cortez -- Kobi - (   ) 02:36, 31 Mar 2005 (EST)

"The São Paulo's motto was "Give me Liberty or give me Death...", a quote by Patrick Henry. The ship was "named for the people of Brazil." " I don't know if this is canon, but as it is 'named for the people fo Brazil', the motto would be 'Independence or Death' as the independence motto of Brazil. Just FYI, anyway. =]

USS Sao Paulo
If you are in reference to the USS Sao Paulo-that-became-the-Defiant, we never saw it's original NCC because the model used for shooting was the same model that was the USS Defiant NX 74205. --Clarkhennessy 20:49, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, we did see it's original registry number, on the Dedication plaque. - AJHalliwell 20:53, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, i took a closer look at my DS9 DVDs and you are right! --Clarkhennessy 09:42, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC)

NCC-74205-A?
An IP user added info that this registry was used in the series finale of DS9. I've always heard that this wasn't the case, so i was wondering if there was any substantiation anyone has for this fact (like a screencap).

Also, there's no explanation for the pna-incomplete notice, which seems erroneous to have here -- after all there isnt much more information about this vessel. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk
 * These changes were also made to USS Defiant (NCC-75633), and was noted on the talk page.  I, too, would like some sunstantiation.  —   THOR  =/\= 02:09, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Well, I watched "What you leave behind" again closely (as I've mentioned on the other talk page) and I have found NO occurrance of NX-74205-A or NCC-74205-A. Every shot clearly reads "NX-74205" on the hull. It seems there IS no substantiation, the claim is simply inaccurate. I cannot speak for the Making Of, but the episode itself clearly does not show any 74205-A registry. --Defstar 03:29, 20 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen the DVD behind the sceens either, but I've never seen NCC-74205-A anywhere on screen before. It may have been the intent of the producers to have an A suffix, but it never made it on screen. --Sloan47 22:17, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Removed
 * Although the dedication plaque on the bridge gave the registry as NCC-75633, external CGI images seen in repeated the old Defiant registry with the "A" suffix. The CGI modellers did this to the new footage in the "What you Leave Behind" following the assumption that the Defiant'' qualified as a legendary starship. In the Making of "What you Leave Behind" on the Season 7 DVD Box Set, a close up of the vessel in Lightwave is shown with the registry NCC-74205-A. Also as a result of using stock footage from earlier episodes, the Defiant loses and gains the "A" suffix at random intervals.

I'd say we shouldn't add this in again until someone confirms the DVD has this feature, since the veracity is questioned above. -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 14:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

As far as i remember in that Episode. Starfleet Operations gave Sisko Special Dispensation to Change the name AND Registry number of the Sao paolo to the original of the Defiant. So the name, the registry number, and the dedication plaque should have been changed to reflect the Special dispensation granted.

This is one of 3 newly rendered sequences made specifically for the end WYLB that clearly shows the NX-74205 registry and IS NOT a stock shot of an earlier battle: []. I think the 75533 is incorrect, or at least sufficient evidence to suggest that the registry not be listed in the Defiant's article name - 121.44.246.28 13:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I too have recently watched the before mentioned scene and it clearly shows the registry NX-74205. Changing a ship's name is one thing, but changing the registry would just be stupid because this would make the whole point of having a registry number void. The number is what describes this ship, names can be changed. Having one number for two ships doesn't make sense at all.


 * And even IF the number was changed, it would have been changed to NCC-74205 and not NX-74205 again since the second ship is hardly a prototype. I would have accepted the NCC-74205-A theory (like the Enterprises do it), but there is even less evidence for that.


 * The most logical explanation is that&mdash;besides from stock footage&mdash;the CGI crew just did not repaint the model and used the old one. --Maxwell Fawkes 00:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Two Pages?
I am wondering why there are two pages for this one ship. USS Defiant (NCC-75633) has its own page. I know that the name was changed, but why is that a reason to have two pages? It would seem beneficial to have all of the relevant information about this ship and its history on a single page and then use a redirect for the other name. Jdvelasc 18:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Added merge template. One ship. One page. – StarFire209 05:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Disregard what I said.  I didn't realize we already had a page for both the NX, and the later NCC (actually the Sao Paulo).  This page, and the NCC75633 should be merged.  Sorry.  :PHossrex 10:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The second Defiant and the Sao Paulo are one and the same ship, with a name change. This is not a suggestion to merge with the first Defiant. As such, I'd agree with a merge while keeping the other article title (whichever that may be) as a redirect. -- Cid Highwind 10:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * :P  I noticed that after my first post.  I entirely agree now, that they should be merged.Hossrex 10:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm, didn't see that when I was posting my reply... Back then, when I was young, we'd get an edit conflict in that situation. ;) -- Cid Highwind 10:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Strongly agree with the idea of a merge: "One ship. One page." --Jayunderscorezero 17:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. Kennelly 15:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, but the USS São Paulo should get its own section on the Defiant (NCC-75633) page at the very top. Keep a redirect. --Cinder 12:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * So what does it take for this to happen? I'd do it if I knew how (well, maybe). :) --Cinder 05:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Star Trek Legacy Reference
Does the fact that the Sao Paulo appears in the game in 2380 really mean that they changed the Defiant's name back? Couldn't another Defiant-class ship have been named Sao Paulo? 31dot 22:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Why does this page even still exist?
There is Video evidence that the registration number was changed to Nx-74205. You dont need any more evidence then that. It is VERY clearly seen multiple times in the last episode. This page should be Deleted.

Third Defiant?
do we really know if this Defiant was the third to carry the name? We know the Enterprise D was the fifth because the computer said so in "Relics" but is there any such data on the Defiant? --TOSrules 02:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This is old, I know but I just have to respond :P.  Anyways, it might not be the third ship in Starfleet to bear the name Defiant however, it is the third canon ship to bear the name.  One in TOS two in DS9. --Terran Officer 03:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 3 years later: The article says "at least three", which is an appropriate in-universe perspective.

-A?
Special:Contributions/59.167.40.181 recently changed all the references within this article (as well as USS São Paulo) from NCC-75633 to NCC-74205-A and provided this addendum to chew on for why:


 * The New CGI Scenes made for "What You Leave Behind" clearly show a "-A" suffix attached to the registry, as opposed to the Sao Paulo's original NCC-75633 Registry. The CGI modellers who "refit" the original starship added the -A in the belief that the Defiant did indeed qualify as a legendary starship. Unadulterated views of the CGI model with -A are available in the DS9 Season 7 Box Set's special feature "The Making of What You Leave Behind"

My two points of question here are:


 * 1) Is this legit?
 * 2) If so, the page should be moved to USS Defiant (NCC-74205-A), right?.

—   THOR  =/\= 02:02, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember this is something Ira Behr suggested (adding an A), but couldn't because they wanted to reuse scenes for the last episode, and hence couldn't change the model. They most certainly didn't add an A. The exterior showed the old Defiant's number, but I think (don't remember off the top of my head) there's a source for the current number. - AJHalliwell 02:17, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * The final scenes clearly showed NCC-74205-A in the scene where the Breen warship was coming up the ass of the Defiant just as the Cardassians switch scenes. And in the scene where the defiant barrel-rolls past the galaxy with the camera tracking it's bridge, you can read NCC-74205-A - 59.167.40.181 05:55, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * I have watched those scenes again just now, there is NO mention of 74205-A. Every single shot of the Defiant registry reads NX-74205. Besides, if there had been an A-suffix, it would have read NCC-74205-A, since a second Defiant would not have been a prototype anymore. The claim is inaccurate. --Defstar 03:18, 20 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * That would suggest that the faux Sao Paolo/Defiant had it's registry changed to NX-74205 rather then the Sao Paolo's original registry, which easily means the claim is justified in terms of the registry not being changed from the original ship's for the final scenes.


 * I just watched those scenes too. There is NO -A on the Defiant in any of the scenes, be it the ones they reused from earlier episodes or the new ones that were created for "What you leave behind". There is also no Scene that shows the registry number being NCC - 75633 I stand by that the Registry number was changed back to the original and this page should also reflect that the Defiant is NX-74205 and was never anything else. When the Sao paolos name was changed so was its registry number.


 * Hi could you perhaps post a screenshot of that sceen or a part of that sceen?

Repaint the model?
I thought the Defiants were CGI in the last four seasons? -- 81.149.5.86 09:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That note in the article IS incorrect. The Defiant was CGI in "What You Leave Behind". -- DS9 Forever 00:12, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Merge with USS São Paulo
One ship. Should be one page. – StarFire209 05:26, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would make more sense to redirect Sao Paulo to this page, as this was the most recent name for that ship. --Alan del Beccio 06:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Some fans...
I removed:


 * Fans have attempted to rationalize this as a measure designed to confuse the Dominion forces. Assuming this is true, the 'real' registry number of the new Defiant is probably NCC-75633, as no mention was ever made of changing the São Paulo's number – only its name.  However, there is a possibility that the registry number of the new Defiant is NCC-74205, as the class was clearly put into production during the war. 

If something like this needs to be justified with the "some fans" rationalization, then it is speculation and doesn't belong here. --Alan del Beccio 07:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Change back to USS São Paulo
If I remember correctly, the name change was only in effect until the end of the war, which we saw happen in the final episode, so the name would have reverted back at that time. - Archduk3:talk 12:23, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was never stated that it was only for the duration of the war.
 * ROSS: "There's something else on that PADD that might interest you."
 * SISKO: "Special dispensation from the Chief of Starfleet Operations to change the name from Sao Paulo to... Defiant."
 * EZRI: "Now what do you think of her?"
 * No mention of a time limit on the new name. I'm pretty sure it also stays "Defiant" in the relaunch, which is a detail I'd hope they would have caught. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:30, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

That seems pretty clear to me, so disregard the name change. - Archduk3:talk 14:36, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would either rename the page to USS Sao Paulo (NCC-75633) or merge it with USS Defiant (NX-74205). The registry in the title is simply wrong for this name, since we've only seen NX-74205 in connection with "Defiant", even in new CG shots created after the Sao Paulo had been renamed. – 86.49.116.43 21:20, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Cloaking device speculation
I'm removing the following:
 * Possibly due too the fact that Captain Benjamin Sisko knew that the cloaking device shouldn't be used in the Alpha Quadrant, however he cloaked the original Defiant in a rescue mission for the Detapa Council in 2372, this direct Violation from the federation may in part be the reason why a replacement cloak was not given by Romulus, the federation has shown that they cannot be trusted to resist the temptation of using the technology in the Alpha Quadrant.

It is entirely speculation. The truth is, we don't know why the Romulans didn't give another cloaking device. For all we know, in the heat of the war, they didn't have time to give one, and then didn't feel the need after the fighting with the Dominion was over. We didn't exactly see this ship very long. Regardless, we just don't know why, and don't need to be inserting made up reasons. I'd add that the line above this note says "most likely" has no cloaking capability. We aren't even sure it doesn't. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:20, February 9, 2010 (UTC)