Talk:Ayala

Alternate timelines and italics
Until discussion is resolved at Memory Alpha talk:Manual of Style, I request that all alternate timeline information is kept as part of the flow of the main article as long as it is specifically identified as such. -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 00:52, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fast Runner?
In Basics Part II, I don't remember the exact line; But did janeway say something like "Who was a fast runner at the academy?" or something? Since Ayala was promoted directly to Lieutenant, when most other Maquis were put at crewmen (for all seven years) it's possable he was in starfleet. Could someone check into the reference? -AJHalliwell 11:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The conversation was as follows...
 * Janeway: Who are the fastest runners here?
 * Torres: I was on the decathlon team before I quit the Academy. The track and field coach was furious with me.
 * Janeway: Anyone else here who can run?
 * Ayala: Yeah.
 * I agree with your reasoning that the fact Ayala had a lieutenant's commission indicates that he was probably in Starfleet at some point, but unfortunately, I can't seem to find any information which would definitely prove this; until then, it's just speculation. However, we could probably add something specific about his participation in the diversion to the main article. -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 22:32, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Shattered"
Just to prevent an edit war, I'd like to explain my reasoning behind the reference. First, the fact that Ayala was stuck in the transporter room with Torres and the other Maquis proves that he was beamed aboard with them in the normal timeline during, and should thus be identified as a normal datapoint. Also, I believe the current use of an appositive explaining Chakotay's presence is more informative than simply writing "in the future" within parenthesis. -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 22:32, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, I wouldn't want to be the initiator of an edit war. Just at an earlier point, the article didn't even mention that there was an alternate timeline, and when I went to change it, someone'd (I think you) had already saved a change, so it didn't stick. No problems with the way it is now. Also, great pics, how do you get'm?-AJHalliwell 16:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Featured article nomination discussion

 * Ayala -- very comprehensive and an excellent work-up of a minor character. -- Dmsdbo 21:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, exceptionally comprehensive with gouts of information. —  THOR 17:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, a surprisingly large amount of canon information and references for an extra (albeit a regular one).--Scimitar 18:20, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, My favorite reoccuring character! This lists basically every single appearence of his, I like it. The chronological-ness of it is questionable though (granted, that's not a word...).<This has since been fixed, by me and others. No complaints, my full support! -AJHalliwell 22:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, especially with the delightfully cynical "memorable quotes" section. Is there anyway this article could be better organized, though? Perhaps categories, topics, instead of a chronological mass? --Brad Rousse 00:01, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * When I originally expanded the article, I tried ordering things like I did for characters such as Beverly Crusher and William T. Riker, but I never added categories for Ayala because I didn't really consider it that vital for such a small article and (relatively) insignificant character! But I've tried to continue from where AJHalliwell started and add categories like for the major characters... see what you think... -- SmokeDetector47 // talk 00:08, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Support - now there are sections to this article, and another picture, this looks like a proper featured article! zsingaya 08:05, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow
I never knew this guy was so important!42bens 22:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He isn't, he sounds like the most boring under used character in the whole series!--93.97.23.110 22:15, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * To follow up on that: that is a very legitimate point actually. Why in the world do we have such a long article on a less than minor character on Voyager who barely ever said a word, much less spoke a sentence and treat him like a real crew member in the sense that the other main characters were? This whole article consists of phrases like "he was standing there next to Chakotay when this happened". Great - so were about a dozen other extras. The man is a complete nobody as far as Voyager's stories and challenges, personalities and characters are concerned. His presence or absence have no bearing whatsoever on Voyager's journey. I think this article just misrepresents who he is by referencing trivial incidences in the story where he was just nothing more than an extra and blowing them u to make it look like he really was someone important. – Distantlycharmed 23:03, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because we have the information to present, and don't try to hide it. It's one of the most amazing things about MA that we CAN present so much about a seemingly minor character, or perhaps not as minor as he appears on the surface. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:34, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. If we are to be the "most definitive, accurate, and accessible encyclopedia" about Star Trek, we need articles like this.  We don't censor information just because it is a "minor" character or because of personal judgments that he is a "complete nobody".--31dot 00:05, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh come one, of course he is a complete nobody, but I do get the point about this making sense given what MA strives to be. I do think this article's tone to be misleading though. It somehow makes it sound like Ayala had any kind of direction of his own and self awareness in the series, and not that he was really just placed there like a tricoder or console. I mean, he is just an extra really. A scene-by-scene account of what extras have done seems tedious. But like I said, I guess i understand why that info can be relevant to some. – Distantlycharmed 00:31, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * TO be blunt, no one gives a damn if you don't personally see the point. Take your personal emotions out of this. We have the information, we are presenting it. Heck, who are you to say that the writers or actor playing the character didn't have direction? You're not exactly a time traveling betazed. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's face it, Ayala was the glue that held the Voyager crew together. Anyone tries to badmouth him is going to get a piece of my mind!-Angry Future Romulan 01:00, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gee Cobra, as usual you are taking this way too seriously. What do you do like sleep with a gun under your pillow and fire at the slightest squeak at night. Sense of humor, sense of humor... you are entitled to think he was just about the second coming of Kirk or whatever...but really he was just an extra and either way, I did say I see the point in having an article on him here, trivial as his role and existence may have been - sorry Blair :) – Distantlycharmed 02:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey folks! Didn't know I'd caused such a stir here... Lets be honest here however, this article reads like his number one stalker decided to write up a personal profile for him on a dating site.  Where he has been, exactly what he said, who he stood next to, his casual appearance in the corner of the camera, it's INSANE.  There are regular cast members of Voyager who don't have a page as long as this.  And any good encyclopedia should also at least be succinct and to the point as well as detailed... balance is essential.  However I will add this, he is kinda hot.  --93.97.23.110 21:56, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't be judging my Ayala shrine. Also, are you saying you haven't read his profile at QuantumDating.com? - 22:11, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Bhahaha...I know!!! It's like walking into the room of a professional stalker and seeing his walls covered with like a million pictures of his crush or something. I love it. Only on MA...(no offense duke, didnt know you wrote it :). – Distantlycharmed 22:53, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, I didn't write, I've never even edited it, but it's now my new favorite page. I'm even considering putting up for a featured article vote. :p - 23:14, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Is Tarik Ergin really Ayala?
How do we know that the character portrayed by Tarik Ergin is Ayala? Since he was never credited as Ayala (nor, apparently, addressed as such), it seems a reasonable question to ask. Is this based on how his dialogue was labeled in scripts? I know that the character's name was used by other characters, but only, as far as I can remember, in his absence. I'm not sure anyone ever turned to Tark Ergin and said, "Ayala, do ". Even the scene in where we have intercom self-identification of Ayala is a little vague, as we don't actually see Ergin making the call. We certainly don't know that it's Ergin's voice, as he was, after all, uncredited. This article really needs to clarify the basis by which Ergin is Ayala, as it's a tad obscure.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  22:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In the very first episode where he is named he is directly addressed by Janeway on the bridge. She looks directly into his eyes and says "Mister Ayala, scan for any alien vessels in the sector.". He is filling in for Harry at ops in that scene (Harry is on the planet), nods his head and starts pushing the buttons. As Tarik Ergin was an extra, he usually did not speak but nodded his head when he got an order. In the very first episode where the name "Ayala" is heard, the character played by Tarik Ergin in previous and later episodes is directly linked to that name. The Ayala article mentions "He was first referred to by name in VOY: "Faces".". If this isn't clear enough, it can be changed to "first directly adressed by name" or something similar. --Jörg 06:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure directly addressed him by name as well, and I seem to recall the holographic Chakotay in  directly addressing the holographic Ayala, too. - Bridge 10:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Changes to background section
The following is an archive of the Background section prior to revisions made today:


 * Ayala was played by Tarik Ergin, a regular extra for all seven years of Star Trek: Voyager. He worked in main engineering in  but was moved to the bridge by . He was first referred to by name in .  He appeared in numerous episodes, usually standing at the master systems display or mission ops stations at the back of the bridge.  He generally replaced Tuvok at tactical whenever he left the bridge, and also replaced Kim at the ops station during the first two seasons.  Ayala was also seen often in the mess hall and the corridors. Ergin was only credited twice for the role, as "Security Guard" in  and "Tactical N.D." in , even though he worked at the conn in the latter episode.  He only spoke in the episodes , , , and , and even then, only said a few words.  He was called ensign in , but lieutenant once again in , so if he was demoted, it was only a temporary reprimand.


 * Ayala's first name, if any exists, has never been revealed. Due to his paucity of speaking roles and little-developed personality, the fact that he survived the entire run of the series makes him a "".

Changes today bulleted the list for easier reading, included additional linkages, and made link between Ergin and Ayala clearer, per discussion above  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  11:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I checked. When he's pleading for his life on the bridge, Tuvix looks right at Ergin and says "Mister Ayala." Chakotay speaks directly to him in "Worst Case Scenario" and calls him Ayala as well. I'm adding both of these instances to the background section, but I really don't understand why there's such doubt about whether Ergin played this role. - Bridge 11:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that I've actually been looking for it, I agree, there's not much doubt that he was occasionally referred to as Ayala. However, in most of his appearances, there's absolutely nothing to tie the actor to the role. By choosing never to credit him as Ayala, the production staff made their feelings about his character clear — which is to say that they weren't intending to genuinely create a recurring "character". MA has systematically inflated his importance by crediting him as Ayala in various episode pages where, in fact, he received no credit as anything. In most episode pages, he should be credited on MA, if at all, as "uncredited background extra", or somesuch. Canonically, we don't really know he was "playing Ayala" in all these appearances; as the roles were un-named, un-referenced, and un-credited, he could've been playing anyone, for all the difference it actually made to the plot. Certainly, one way to explain why he's in such radically different jobs, and has inexplicable rank changes, is that he's not in fact Ayala in every appearance.

In my view, it's important for casual viewers of Voyager — and indeed users (as opposed to editors) — of this site, that something as obscure as this be thoroughly explained. To my mind, the article previously read as if it were common knowledge who the character was, but I think User:42bens reaction, above, is pretty indicative of the response that this article provokes in people. He's a total non-entity to people who don't study Voyager to excrutiating detail. Connecting the dots — characterizing him as a rarely-named extra — simply makes the article more useful to a broader readership.

I'm kinda shocked, actually, that an article built on such flimsy canonical evidence has received the "featured article" seal of approval. MA has largely created the character of Ayala almost in spite of the production staff's determination not to do so themselves. I'm seriously dubious about the wisdom of creating an article based upon a name never given in the credits, especially when there was an opportunity to do so. That said, I do understand the drive to centralize all information about similar characters played by Ergin into one article. It would be laborious to create one for "Security Guard" and one for "Tactical N.D." (whatever the hell that means). And there's some rationale to going with what was said in dialogue. But if you base it on dialogue, then the article would be substantially different, and shorter, than it is now.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  23:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Tactical N.D. = Tactical Non-Dialogue, which means a background performer (without dialogue) at the tactical station. – Tom 23:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You make it sound as if the producers didn't want the character to receive a name or to be credited when it doesn't have anything to do with how they ant to deal with the character. He's an extra, he nearly never says a word ergo he doesn't receive credit. As soon as he speaks, he has to receive credit and he has to be payed more. That is why those characters rarely ever speak and only nod in agreement when the get an order, if they said "Yes, sir", they'd have to payed more.
 * Now, Ayala is a character that has been named several times over the run of the series, he has also been mentioned when he was not seen on screen. Just because he wasn't named in every single episode he was seen doesn't mean, that he wasn't Ayala in all those episodes. We've seen Miranda class starships in many episodes where they were not named or didn't appear as a background note in the scripts, still, we know they are Miranda class ships, and their appearances in those episodes are listed here. Morn was seen in several episodes and only refrenced in a few. Still, we know it's Morn sitting there at the bar or sleeping on the promenade, just as we know that the character played by Tarik Ergin is Ayala.
 * What you seem to find negative, the fact that people have done lots of research to find all appearances of the character, I find one of the positive aspects of MA. No Star Trek encyclopedia in written form could feature an article about Ayala in such depth and detail. No fan who just watches an episode from time to time would have the chance to see Ayala in all those episodes, or even know his name, because he was only mentioned in some episodes. The editors at MA have watched all those episodes and created a definite list of all those appearances, a lot of work was put into this, for the benefit of the regular reader, not to mislead them in any way.
 * You can see I take this matter pretty serious. I've created an expanded similar articles, Darien Wallace Martinez or Diana Giddings. I went through every single episode of TNG, in this case, looking for their appearances and adding them to their articles. I spoke to Guy Vardaman who played Darien Wallace, and got some invaluable background information on his character and on the life of extras on TNG. I'd never want to remove all that information just because sometbody thinks I'm misleading people or creating an article out of nothing. We ARE here to list and examine also the obscure bits of Trek history, the canon ones, of course. It's one of our major goals to work together to make this absolutely complete. Some editors focus on starships, some on aliens and some on actors and extras. Ayala deserves an article just as complete and extensive as the Galaxy class article. Just because the common reader might be interested more in the latter doesn't mean we leave out this well-known background character. --Jörg 07:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

But see, my point is that when he did speak, and was obliged to receive credit, he wasn't, in fact, credited as Ayala. That indicates to me at least that they weren't intending to genuinely create a character. They had a choice, in those instances, to credit him as Ayala, and they didn't think it a) worthy of doing once or even b) important to credit him in the same way in each (spoken) appearance. Morn is, I would think, the case that proves my point, not yours. Mark Allen Shepherd was awarded credit as "Morn", and his character was awarded titular acknowledgment —  something no regular captain managed — without really ever saying a word. There was, in short, an effort in Morn's case to make him a recurring character that doesn't seem to be present with Ayala. The "effort" with Ergin was simply to reuse the actor as an extra, with no particular care given to establishing a coherent character.

We're asserting, without the authority of canon, that he switched to command division before Janeway's protege, Harry? More to the point, how in the world did his years of experience as an effective redshirt give him the training to pilot the damn ship? Given that he was, according to the article, at engineering, ops, tactical and the conn, he was the true, if completely unbelievable, "renaissance man". You see Ergin's face and you see Ayala. I look at the whole frame and think that it can't possibly be Ayala, given what we know of the way advancement works in Starfleet generally, and how limited advancement is on Voyager, specifically. If true characters can't rotate between divisions, there ain't no way that a background extra should be able to. To me, the visual evidence supports wholly different conclusions than most of the assertions made by this article.

I understand you and others have put a lot of work into this. So I'm not prepared at this time to call for a de-listing of its featured status, nor really anything other than the clarification to his crediting/referencing that I've already made to the article.

But I would ask you to finally consider this: does it make sense we're featuring an article which asserts that "Stop where you are!" and "Yeah" are memorable quotes? Is calling a possible appearance of Ergin's backside in really a definite sighting of Ayala? Can a half-second glimpse of a woman very formally taking his arm at an official function really constitute calling that woman "his guest", and insinuating in a background note that she very well might be his wife? Is this really the best work this site has to offer its readers?  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  13:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree there's some extrapolation in the article. Still, I think those articles are just as worthy as all the others we have here, they are a testament to the massive research we do here, something you find nowhere else.
 * As to people receiving credit in the end credits, it doesn't quite work like that. Take Kyle, he barely ever received credit, and was often called "transporter chief" in the end credits. Leslie Thompson was only credited as "Yeoman", Nina was credited as "Blonde", Hayes as "Admiral" etc etc. They all spoke in the episodes and their names were mentioned, still the characters' names don't appear in the end credits. And still, we create those articles at those names without questioning if we really can call them such. And, again, every time a Klingon is seen in an episode in the background and not referenced as "that Klingon over there", we still list that appearance. It could just as well be a half-Klingon, a member of a similarly looking species, a hologram standing in the corner, a shape-shifter undercover or whatever. It can be mentioned in the article, that the character only was named in episode XX, XY and YY and that it seems rather strange that he appeared at tactical and the conn within a short amount of time. This is more likely, however, than having two identical looking people aboard VOY. --Jörg 19:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I will certainly concede that there are one-off appearances where it's situationally clear what a character's name is, crediting notwithstanding. While I don't think Nina is a particularly strong case, Admiral Hayes and Leslie Thompson are both examples of this. And it's on that basis that we can say that Ayala existed and thereafter assess that life within the narrative of Star Trek: Voyager. I have absolutely no problem about including information in this article for each and every time we hear the word, "Ayala".

But I think that if an allegedly "recurring" character never is established by name in credits, you have to proceed with more caution when you catch a mere glimpse of the extra. You're absolutely right to point out that Kyle often received credit as "Transporter Chief". But the fact that "Kyle" was credited on occasion, was brought over into TAS, and later got John Winston a big ol' credit in, shows the difference between a true background extra and a real character. Like Colm Meaney after him, John Winston may have started out with a negligible role, credited merely by function. But eventually the staff brought him forward, properly credited him, and established him. This never happened with Ayala.

Whereas Kyle was a recognizable member of Enterprise's crew long before the video age, and received his cameo in STII on the basis of easy fan and staff recognition, I think perhaps the DVD age is coloring perception of Ergin. If you were watching this program as it was intended — once a week, casually — you would never link the guy at the conn in  with the guy in. Hell, I don't think you'd even draw a line between that guy and the Maquis-dressed guy in. You say they look alike, but they really don't, given how quickly the images pass and the difference in costuming. But let's say for argument's sake that they actually are identical twins, there's clear precedence for the same actor playing multiple roles of the same species. I find that infinitely more likely than believing that a former Maquis — who, according to this article, has had a demotion and repromotion — would be given an opportunity for advancement and divisional transfer that was never given to any other member of the Voyager crew. This is one case where people have been so desperate to prove a research hypothesis — namely every time we see Ergin we're seeing Ayala — that all other reasonable evidence has been discarded.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  02:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Total aside... but isn't this discussion longer than the article now? :) -- Sulfur 02:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Commander Ayala ???
Alright, I just went through the episode and I am wondering where the section in this article comes from. The man in the red uniform at the 10th Anniversary party is in my opinion not Tarik Ergin and following not Ayala. There are only a few shots but I doubt this. Also the rank of a commander, where is this information from? There is one shot where one rank pip is visible, suggesting this man is an ensign. Tarik Ergin is visible throughout the run of Endgame as a background actor on the bridge in his red command division uniform. Sources & comments, please ! – Tom 12:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't belive this issue has been cleared up yet. Are we sure it's Ayala in the image? --| TrekFan Open a channel 02:52, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Star Wars
I removed the following note:


 * In the Expanded Universe of Star Wars,there is a character with a simalar name,"Aayla"

Unless it was an intentional homage (either way), this is irrelevant. Given how many characters, places etc. exist in each franchise, it's unsurprising some would have similar names.– Cleanse ( talk 01:13, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Memorable Quote?
Are those quotes really "memorable" enough to mention here? - Mitchz95 22:01, March 16, 2012 (UTC)