Talk:Government

Articles of the Federation
I know every other website has FJ's Articles of Federation online (IIRC, including ST Minutiae), but are we not infringing on his copyright? I repeat: "You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource. DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!". I know many people,including myself, are somewhat less strict in the copyright rules concerning Star Trek, but I don't know how this will affect Memory Alpha. Not too mention that they are, for all intents and purposes, not exactly canon. -- Harry 11:54, 10 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * Answer Ottens: I wasn't aware that someone hold the copyright on the Articles of Federation, since I simply founded them at the Computer Core Dump. If that document is not canon, than we have basically no idea how the Federation's Government Structure works. Than we would only know there is a thing as a Federation Council, which is apparently some sort of high government body, and the Federation President, who is apparently the "boss". :\

I know. And we don't even know what kind of power the President has, since he seemed to be only something like the chairman of the Council in the movies, while in DS9, he had powers similar to the President of the United States... -- Harry 02:18, 11 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * Answer Ottens: Indeed, though it seems that he coordinates the foreign policy. And apparently, he has (direct) authorization over the Starfleet Military Staf Committe.

Government structure
And on another note, shouldn't we move this to something like 'Government Structure of the Federation? -- Harry 11:55, 10 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * How do you mean? It's on the UFP's "Government Structure" page now.

Yes, but the title of the page is now "Government Structure". If someone decides to make a page about government structure in general, this'll have to move to a more specific name. -- Harry 08:18, 11 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * Ah okay. :)

What to do with this page?
This page is still bugging me. I checked the SF Tech Manual, and this MA article is actually not a verbatim copy of the Articles of Federation. That means this is probably all conjecture by some website, which gives it even less validity. -- Harry 14:06, 27 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * Seeing as how this page has already been orphaned, I believe that it should simply be deleted. -- MinutiaeMan 14:58, 27 Dec 2003 (PST)


 * Well, you took an awfully long time to do so. :P Anyway, as MA is supposed to be a database containing CANON info, I think (while I wrote this page myself) that it should be removed. All canon info can be moved to the Federation page. Ottens 18:21, 11 Jun 2004 (CEST)

Dominion war battles
Are the Dominion war battles in chronological order?

Slaver Empire ?
Who are they, exactly ? Alex Peckover 09:37, Jun 29, 2004 (CEST)


 * Orian Slave Girls? :P Ottens 11:57, 29 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * The Slavers ruled the galaxy a billion years ago, according to the episode . --Steve 20:28, 30 Jun 2004 (CEST)

Cardassian union
I thought you said the Cardassian Union wasn't an Alpha quadrant super power.


 * This is old, but they were a super power during most of what we saw on TV.

Nygeans in both quadrants
With all the shortcuts Voyager got, I think there is a good chance the Nygeans were in the Beta Quadrant. However, not everyone may agree, so I did both. -2 of 4


 * I think we canonically cannot confirm that - Voyager is never stated to be in the Beta Quadrant at any point, so we can only reference them in the Delta Quadrant. Especially since we first encounter them in season five, which makes it even more likely they're only in Delta. Scratch that, I was thinking of the Moneans. Still, the 'lack of reference'-point stands -- Michael Warren | Talk 18:00, Aug 6, 2004 (CEST)


 * In "Renaissance Man", Janeway (the Doctor) specifically says that the R'Kaal's territory extends "from here to the edge of the Beta Quadrant", which seems to be at least a somewhat impressive distance. Since the crew accepts that, I think it's pretty solid evidence that all the species that came before (Nygeans/Hierarchy) are in the Delta Quadrant. -- EtaPiscium 04:49, 4 Oct 2004 (CEST)

For all we know, she could have meant the "edge" of the Beta Quadrant in that they had just passed it. At first, I wanted to put the Nygeans in the actual category of Beta Quadrant, but I think what I have done is a fair compromise. In fact, to make it easier, I won't even do it for the Hierarchy. -User:2 of 4
 * However, the notion that the Nygeans are in the Beta Quadrant is clearly contradicted by onscreen evidence. The phrase "here to the Beta Quadrant" clearly indicates that the ship has not yet crossed the border. Secondly, the last episode in which the Nygeans appeared in "The Void", nine episodes back, in which Garon clearly states that his ship is headed in the opposite direction as Voyager. So, even if Voyager had crossed the Beta Quadrant border when they entered R'Kaal space (which I don't think they did), that still puts the Nygeans in the Delta Quadrant. -- EtaPiscium 23:13, 17 Oct 2004 (CEST)

I'm still not convinced, but it doesn't really matter because I already took down the "Might be Beta Quadrant", so for all intensive purposes I'm basically agreeing, heh. --User:2 of 4 9\13\04

Miradorn
Did the show actually say that the Miradorn had space? (I'm not saying that they have to have space in order to be on this list, but just for the record) -2 of 4


 * No. I just included them for the sake of completeness since thei were mentioned as a political power concerning diplomatic issues. In, Odo mentioned them together with the Tholians and the Romulans, so they appear to be a decisive power in the alpha/beta quadrant. --BlueMars 21:21, Sep 13, 2004 (CEST)

Military
I realized that the Andorian Imperial Guard probably isn't a government, but Andoria's military. Should we keep it in? Oh, and keep Starfleet in under the Federation.- B-101 19:18, 3 Oct 2004 (CEST)

Species without government names?
OK, guys, let's avoid using the summary field to discuss important issues - that's what this page is for. The relevant summaries:
 * EtaPiscium (Moved battles, eliminated species names since they're not actually governments)
 * 68.9.79.247 (Just because powers like the Nygeans and Tandarans don't have a "government name" does not mean they don't count.)
 * EtaPiscium (It's not that races w/o gov names "don't count", it's that those articles aren't about governments)
 * 2 of 4 (But they are STILL significant powers in the galaxy, and therefore deserve a space. If you want to make a sepate article, fine. Until then, I think these should stay.)

I agree with EtaPiscium here. This is a page about governments, not about species. If we include the minor Miradorn, for example, why not all of them (which would, of course, duplicate the Species and cultures list). Thus, this article should only include links to real governments. -- Cid Highwind 15:12, 4 Oct 2004 (CEST)


 * Actually, the Miradorn was BlueMars's idea. He figures if they were important enough to sign with the Dominion, they are important enough to be on this list. As for the Nygeans, Swarm, and Tandarans, I just use the logic that they have territory. Just because they never gave a name like "Nygean Alliance" doesn't make them any less important. What sets them apart from "aliens of the week" is that they have space.

-User:2 of 4


 * The thing is, it can be pretty much assured that most sovereign spacefaring races have space. Even relatively minor species like the Acamarians or the Axanar or the Lissepians or the Ledosians certainly have territory or "space". And the Nygeans and the Swarm were just aliens of the week, which happened to have "their space" mentioned in the episode. Not to mention that there's no way to gauge how relatively important a species is if we know next to nothing about it. How do we know that the Ledosians aren't more powerful than the Nygeans, or if they have more or less space? This article is titled "Government and Politics", and so it should just have articles about government and politics. -- EtaPiscium 01:07, 5 Oct 2004 (CEST)


 * You could use the same arguement that every alien of the week has it's own "government name". As far as I'm concerned, it has to be stated that a race has it's own territory in order for it to have space. Also, this is assuming that, if a species has it's own territory, it also has other races under it's government. As for Ledosians, I know that they have space and the only reason I haven't added them is because I didn't want to overflow the Delta Quadrant. But feel free to do so if you want. The same goes for about 5 others.

-User:2 of 4


 * Yes, every alien of the week probably has a government name, but the fact is that we don't know them and we shouldn't speculate on what they are. And since this page is about governments, it should have a list of KNOWN GOVERNMENTS on it. The division of "species with space" and "species without space" is completely arbitrary since we don't know enough about most races to say one or the other. Not to mention that even species which don't have "space" have governments, and if we know what that government is called then they have more of a right to be on this page than species that don't have established government names. -- EtaPiscium 03:10, 5 Oct 2004 (CEST)

Divisions
I re-divided some of the Alpha\Beta Quadrant powers. I dunno, I hope none of you mind. I added the Metrons to "Major" since they are obviously powerful User:2 of 4


 * I personally don't like the current "power" grouping system altogether. We don't really know how powerful some of the more obscure governments are, so it seems overly conjectural to put them in these categories. For instance, we have no idea now powerful the Tholians are -- even if they seldomly contact the Federation that doesn't mean they're not just as powerful. Also, "pre-Federation" and "post-Federation" are inaccurate categories, since some of the governments in pre-Federation could very well exist in the 24th century, and post-Federation implies that it existed after the Federation. -- EtaPiscium 00:30, 1 Nov 2004 (CET)

Well as far as the "Post" part goes, I added (or both). You can get rid of the Medium Powers thing if you really don't like it. -User:2 of 4

Organization
I restored the original organization because I think it makes less assumptions/speculations. I've also removed the following: Gorn Hegemony, Malon Cooperative, Son'a Solidarity, Talarian Republic, and the Tzenkethi Coalition for now. These come from the Star Charts and I don't know of any canon evidence for their existence.

Also, again I've removed the items which were about individual species, not their governments. -- EtaPiscium 22:51, 23 Nov 2004 (CET)


 * I removed Gorn Hegemony again -- i really don't want to see any of these re-added until there is a canon episode reference attached to them. Star Charts still isn't canon. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 00:59, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Clutter"
I don't really think this page looks "cluttered" at all. What's wrong with having a long list? This isn't even close to being the longest list on this site. I think it's better to have a longer general list than a couple of smaller lists that make unsupported speculations or arbitrary divisions. -- EtaPiscium 00:31, 4 Dec 2004 (CET)


 * Seriosuly though, how much speculation is involved? We know the three Federation powers are gone when it forms, and it's pretty safe to say that the Kzinti and Suliban aren't around, and the Xindi joins the Feds too. User:2 of 4

How is it safe? There is NO canon evidence whatsoever that the Kzinti and the Suliban "aren't around" in the 24th century -- Star Charts lists the Kzinti Patriarchy as a sovereign power, that's one non-canon evidence against it. And how do we know that the Xindi join the Federation? Just because they serve on the Enterprise-J doesn't mean they're members; Starfleet has lots of officers who don't belong to member worlds. -- EtaPiscium 05:37, 5 Dec 2004 (CET)


 * Agreed. There is ZERO evidence Xindus or the Suliban joined the Federation. Heck, there's no evidence that even the Suliban exist outside of ENT. And Xindus was a Federation member in a possible future timeline, which means nothing. -- Harry 22:33, 24 Dec 2004 (CET)


 * Can we please just leave it like this now? I've conceeding many things to you, could you at least do that?

User:2 of 4

Suliban Cabal
It occurs to me that referring to the Cabal as a government is somewhat of a fallacy-- it's just an collection of Suliban who are working for the mysterious Future Guy, more of a rogue terrorist group than an actual government. And it probably falls apart after "Storm Front" anyway, with the end of the Temporal Cold War and the death of my hero Silik. -Steve 22:15, 5 Dec 2004 (CET)
 * Well, it is a government in the sense that it rules over a large group of people, even if it is just a puppet of Future Guy (there are puppet governments on Earth but they're still governments). The difference between it and a terrorist group is that the people who belong to terrorist groups are still technically under another government's jurisdiction, and the Suliban under the Cabal are certainly not. And there's no reason why it should fall apart after the Temporal Cold War; that probably just means that the Cabal's acting on its own now. -- EtaPiscium 22:39, 24 Dec 2004 (CET)

Talk:Galactic political powers
Do we really need this page? Other then the political powers listed, nothing really links to it. Also, I believe most of the political powers mentioned are only so because they are listed as such in the (ever present) Star Trek: Star Charts book. - AJHalliwell 01:16, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * we do in order to give the current status of the powers in relation to each other--Noahmj 03:42, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * Isn't this really a retread of the information at government and politics? I don't see any of the "current status" more here than there. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk


 * I can see how this page is useful, it quickly outlines the MAJOR superpowers in each of the quadrants unlike government and politics. Many races listed on that page have very little galactic power, the Breen and Cardassians for example have helped change the face of the entire alpha and beta quadrants in recent years where-as the Lysian Alliance has only recently been discovered and is over 100yrs behind most races in technology. I think this page is very relevant. --Filth 15:08, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, who thinks there is any value to assigning several powers to the Beta Quadrant, even though no episode or film has firmly established whether many major powers are in the Beta Quadrant or not? I find this to be inaccurate and misplaced (keeping in mind that Star Trek: Star Charts is not canon and a lot of the information within is contradictory to valid resources, or simply irrelevant to a study of only canonical data). --Filth 16:25, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a fairly short list and could probably even be placed in the 2379 article or such, for the powers that are actually canonically referred to as playing a role in politics in that year. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 15:38, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * this is where is gets complicated, merging it with a year entry means every year entry has to have a list of superpowers at that time. that's just silly!! though I do agree the article is somewhat biased to recent 24th century events, maybe this should be expanded to list superpowers at different times in history? --Filth 16:26, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * has it not been established somewhere in an episode or film that romulan and klingon empires ARE mostly in the beta quadrants and spill slightly in the alpha quadrants? Sulu was surveying qaseous anamalies in the beta quadrant very close to klingon space in Star Trek VI after-all.


 * In Star Trek VI Sulu simply said that he was "in Beta Quadrant" -- he never said whether he was in or near Klingon space at the time. Klingons are alway mentioned as Alpha Quadrant in DS9 -- so where's the Beta reference? same goes for the Romulans -- no one has attempted to cite any valid resource where they are mentioned to be here or there.


 * I also removed non-canon government names: Tzenkethi Coalition, Talarian Republic, Malon cooperative. Could we please try to limit this to data that has ben mentioned in Star Trek? -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 16:48, 10 Jul 2005 (UTC)

On what basis are we calling some of these "Super Powers" of their respective quadarent? The Metron Consortium certainly don't seem to involved in interstellar politics, and governments like the Etanian Order, the B'omar Sovereignty, The Swarm, and the First Federation all appeared in one episode, never to be heard from again. Is this just to be a list of every known Government? If not, we should narrow it to powers which have actually affected things, or been mentioned to effected things in their one episode. IE: The Devore Imperium appeared in two episodes I believe, once as a minor footnote, and the other as strict law givers of their big space. And later in (I think!) the Vaadwaur wanted to colonize a planet near Devore space, but Seven said that they are a powerful power, and control several systems in that area. -AJHalliwell 20:59, 11 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * This is too restrictive, as I see no concrete outline as to why some governments are allowed and others are not. We already have government and politics, why not reorganize that page instead of recreating it under this name? --Alan del Beccio 10:16, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * (in crummy British accent) I concur. Here, here. --Shran 10:19, 12 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Star Trek Political Future
The following interplanetary clashes:

Federation –Federation politics will suffer. The fear of the Dominion and the Borg will stay for decades. Outside of the Federation borders, planets will apply for associate members. Only few will receive full membership. Many ex-client races of the Cardassian, Dominion and Romulan will try cause economical problems. Romulan Empire – Disintegration of the Romulan fleet. Civil war and retribution campaigns by conquer races will destroy the Romulan war machine. The end is safe by the Vulcan unification and the Federation.

Klingon Empire – New political vision in the empire. The Klingon High Council will change the horizons of the new generation of warriors with the gains of the Cardassian ex-colonies.

Ferengi Alliance- "Opportunities, bribe or who may seek profit." "Open the gates of the Great Material Continuum". Rule 111 – Treat people in your debt like family,.. exploit them.


 * ...Can you repeat the question? - AJHalliwell 23:12, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Sorry,

What are the future plots in political overview of Star trek?

What about the Maquis?
Shouldn't the Maquis be included in this list? --Timo Takalo 23:42, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)