Talk:Kelvin type

Nomination
Self-nomination: I strongly believe this article fits the FA criteria. --Defiant 01:10, June 12, 2012 (UTC) Well, as far as I can see, you're the only editor here who has been fixating over this "blurb" idea. If it's so easy to do, I don't see why you couldn't have done it yourself, rather than just leaving the message that it needed a blurb and then criticizing my efforts to add one! I'm sorry that I even tried. --Defiant 13:45, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Support the article, but oppose the blurb. A quick look at any of the other blurbs should have been enough to know that blurbs only contain a link to the article in question, as previously discussed. Also, this blurb has little to do with the type itself, as it reads more like a blurb for the USS Kelvin, right down to the picture only being labeled as that ship. While blurbs should usually be the first few paragraphs, in this case a different section should be used instead of the history section. - 13:06, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

With blurbs recently having been approved by the community, I'm also interested in getting this one right, though I'm unsure about exactly how to, due to the policy pages being unclear about them. Also, thanks for your comments so far, but the FA nomination policy page currently states, "If you approve of an article, write Support followed by your reasons," so is there any chance you could disclose some reasoning for your support vote? --Defiant 18:51, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

I've now had a go at rewriting the blurb. Is it any better? --Defiant 19:04, June 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Blurbs have not been recently approved by the community, just by you, as the consensus you're claiming is now enough is actually less than the one you claimed wasn't. Since that is now stated for the record, my reasoning for supporting the article is I "believe this article fits the FA criteria". I would have just placed a "〃" in my original statement, but I don't believe in this strongly enough to warrant that. The blurb is also now acceptable. - 19:49, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Haha! Thanks for those compliments; you made me laugh. :) Any more comments from other users? --Defiant 20:18, June 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment-Shouldn't there be a quick note after the first sentence "In 2233, a vessel of this type, the USS Kelvin, was deployed near Klingon space. " that she has returned that year to earth, as Kirk was born in Iowa in the prime universe? Or at least something like "She shortly thereafter returned to Federation space, where one of her female crew members disembarked in order to give birth."--Sennim 10:16, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that would entail speculation, as we don't canonically know that, in the prime reality, the Kelvin didn't rendezvous with another starship that delivered Winona Kirk and her unborn baby to Earth. From what the writers have stated, this is not what they intended, though that bg info seems more suitable for the page about the Kelvin itself, where you can currently find such info. --Defiant 11:31, June 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Support-You're right of course got my ship and type mixed up:)--Sennim 13:10, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

Cool; no worries! I'm basically happy to address any and all comments on how this page could be further improved, though I personally can't think of any ways. Thanks for your vote. --Defiant 14:30, June 22, 2012 (UTC)

The article is indebted to James Clyne for okaying the use of his Kelvin-type bridge concept artwork, so a big thanks to him. Any other comments and/or votes? --Defiant 18:20, June 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - excellent work.–Cleanse ( talk 06:32, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the votes so far. Would anyone else like to make another? --Defiant (talk) 02:12, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Meets the criteria. 31dot (talk) 03:03, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

As stated, the votes are very much appreciated. With one more support vote needed to make this a featured article, are there any takers? Alternatively, if you think this article isn't worthy of FA status, feel free to vote "oppose," by all means. Thanks. --Defiant (talk) 12:27, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

New Timeline?
Should the "new timeline" banner really be at the top of this article since the Kelvin was commissioned prior to Nero's incursion? -- TrekFan Talk 14:08, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Since most of the information here describes something that occurred before the creation of the new timeline, I would say, no, it shouldn't be here. :) --From Andoria with Love 04:19, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I thought so. I'm going to go ahead and delete it. If anyone has any reason why it should be here, please comment. -- TrekFan Talk 22:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary
Is this article even necessary? Since the USS Kelvin is the only known Kelvin-class ship, the two articles will be highly redundant. I see no purpose to this class page, since class pages help to link various ships and their histories to each other in the same class. As there are no other Kelvin-class vessels, I don't see the point. Feel free to correct me otherwise. --Kahwless 15:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Having this article here allows for expansion should we see any more ships of the class in the future. Also, if we removed this one, we would have to remove all the other "ship-type" articles on MA. No, having this article here lets us add to it in the future, should we need to. If not, then it's here for the sake of completeness, IMO. -- TrekFan Talk 15:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Your point is valid. With Paramount anticipating a 2011 release of the next film, I'm sure we can anticipate a better glimpse into early Starfleet ship history, possibly more Kelvin-class vessels. And with the onslaught of novels that I'm sure will come about as a result of the movie, I do see apocryphal vessels appearing as well. --Kahwless 21:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well also the "Kelvin type" was a featured vessel in the film. The corridors, escape pods, bridge design, basic ship design, similarity to Saladin and Ptolemy class design, over 800 crew, phaser/photon complement, shuttlebay, turbolift, weird shielding arrangement, and probably more are just a few details that would be better off here than on the USS Kelvin page (which is supposed to focus on the History and crew of that particular ship). We've made good articles with quite a bit less, and this is a potentially feature-worthy (when we get DVD-quality images) ship-class. No need to worry about the sequel or apocrypha for all that.--Tim Thomason 08:04, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Size?
I'm a little hesitant to accept the size given for the Kelvin class. 450 - 650 meters? Constitution class ships were only 300 meters long. If the class truly is 655 meters in length, this would make the Kelven-class one of the largest ships built by Starfleet that we know of, roughly the size of the Galaxy-class! Was Starfleet making ships of this size in that time??? Leonard McCoy stated that the Excelsior was a big ship in the movies, and that class measures less than 500 meters. Semiscaepera 08:28, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Length and size are two different things. At its official size of 457 meters, Kelvin's internal volume would be nearly equivalent to the original Constitution class. More importantly, even at 655 meters in length, it would be barely a third of the Galaxy class' volume. If McCoy had said That's the biggest ship I've ever seen that would be one thing, but he never even says that much. The ship's official size makes as much sense as anything else in canon. Newtype alpha 05:20, March 31, 2012 (UTC)

Blue bolts
Okay, so there are bound to be more people questioning the "blue bolts as photon torpedoes" factoid. Here is the reasoning on this, based on the visuals and the script. In the dialogue all they say is "Fire all phasers" at the beginning of the battle when they are only firing with the red beams. So the blue bolts are at least not phasers presumably. Later on they start firing these blue bolts also after Captain Robau is killed on the Narada, the script says they are firing photons also at this point:


 * 26MA EXT. U.S.S. KELVIN - CONTINUOUS 26MA
 * The Kelvin BANKS AGAIN -- its PHOTONS SLAMMING INTO THE ONCOMING
 * NARADA TORPEDOES, JUST AVOIDING IMPACT!

...which to me makes it a pretty clear case that the blue bolts slamming into narada torpedoes are the photon torps called for in the script. All they say at that point in the film dialogue is that this rapid firing of all weapons is part of the "Bravo-six maneuver" and there are no displays or other dialogue to say anything more about these blue bolts. However the Enterprise torps look almost exactly the same but a bit brighter blue bolts at the end of the film. And "photon" is synonymous in the script with "photon tordedo" if you read the whole thing through. So there you have it. --Pseudohuman 20:13, November 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Question: If those are torpedos, then the Kelvin must have a literal SHITTON of them to be firing that rapidly. The Galaxy class only held what, 250? That and this would be the only second time we see a torpedo being turreted (first being the saber-class, first contact). The in ending, the Enterprise fires similar bursts only red.

..and DS9 had those rotary rapid torpedo fire turrets they used in Way of the Warrior. And this was a last ditch-fire everything-situation for the Kelvin, so I suspect Kelvin-type ships don't normally fire hundreds of torpedoes in rapid fire. also it's worth noting that photon torpedoes used in this era by the Enterprise later on in the film weren't those large coffin sized capsules, but much smaller missiles. But in the end all we have is the script to go by, so i think we must trust that and leave it to our own imagination to speculate what type of photons torps those were. --Pseudohuman 11:54, May 7, 2012 (UTC)

Background information or apocrypha
So we seem to have a disagreement with user Defiant on what is apocrypha and what is background information. As far as I can tell these notes are licenced non-fiction sources that would be listed as background information sources and not apocryphal: Could someone help us here? --Pseudohuman 07:10, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The USS Kelvin dossier on the official website for the movie states that the ship was used primarily as a survey vessel.
 * The Gizmotron models 1/2500 scale model kit names this ship type as the Federation deep space scout.
 * According to Intel Corporation's, the Kelvin's impulse engines were powered by four deuterium fusion reactors and the inside of the warp nacelle contained two rows of massive semi-circular warp coils.


 * The first note would probably be Background because it was on the official movie website, which suggests the information was associated with the production of the movie. The other two notes would be Apocrypha because Intel writing information about the ship and the model company doing so are likely both those respective companies making up information themselves(at least as the notes are written now, with no evidence the info came from someone associated with the production).--31dot 10:16, March 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Looking at how MA considers sources, websites are invalid resources unless the info is also available somewhere else, so I thought the bg info from a website might be useful if presented together with where it says the same thing, if you know what I mean. Anyways, I'm happy with the info being integrated into the bg info instead. --Defiant 16:41, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it should also be taken into consideration that the website info directly clashes, at least in my understanding of what a survey vessel is, with a statement made by someone we know played a large part in the movie's production. --Defiant 16:51, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really care where it is, bgnote or in the bgsegment of the article, it's fine how it is now. but official websites are valid reference sources. It doesn't matter if the info is presented in in-universe style "the ship is X" or "a model designer said in an interview that the ship is X"-style. both are just as valid and equal statements as far as MA is concerned. --Pseudohuman 19:25, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

AR
This will mostly likely need to be moved, but it's the alternate reality, just like it's the mirror universe. We used the term alternate reality to describe only one alternate timeline or quantum reality, not several. - 13:38, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The difference is, whereas there is only 1 mirror universe, there's multiple alternate realities. That's a fact and cannot be changed upon a user's whims. --Defiant 16:29, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * There's one we call "the alternate reality" here on MA (for simplicity). The rest are alternate timelines and quantum realities (as AD3 noted above). -- sulfur 16:38, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That's a much better way of wording it, rather than something akin to "we're gonna change the nature of reality by wishing it was this way"! --Defiant 16:43, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could also spell it out in such a clear-cut way for newbies, somewhere in the policies and guidelines. MA is starting to use a lot of words in a different way to how they'd normally be used, such as the AR. I think these should be noted. --Defiant 16:48, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Engines
"The low warp nacelle had an unusual extra exhaust at its aft end, which lit up when the nacelle was energized."

I think we should strike out "unusual" as most/all alternate universe starfleet ships seemed to have nacelle design in a similar way, thus it wasn't unusual for the alternate universe. --Jaguartalon 06:00, April 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I took that observation from here – . It points out that the presence of the exhaust is odd because it's "unlike on any other Federation design of the old continuity." I personally agree that's a fair enough point and, since the quantity of ship types we've seen in the prime universe still vastly outnumbers those from the alternate reality, the exhaust is still technically "unusual". --Defiant 19:20, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Peer review
As can be seen above, on, User:Tim Thomason commented, "We've made good articles with quite a bit less, and this is a potentially feature-worthy ship-class." I tend to agree with him and would be interested in learning any ways to improve on what is already here. --Defiant 20:16, April 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've removed the galleries and redistributed the images to where they are supported by the text. Most other class and type pages have entire sections on the corridors, bridge, sickbay, etc. Throwing all these images in a gallery is less helpful than just linking to the Kelvin-type section of the articles for these, assuming that those sections have actually been written of course. While the background sections have loads to say about these, we don't really spend any time describing some of them in universe. - 20:38, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

I would definitely disagree with you on that point. The bridge is described in lots of detail. Granted, there's less on the other interiors but that's because everything that can be made out on screen is very minimal. The sickbay, for example, basically isn't shown at all; only the doorway is. The other areas are also nondescript, though each one has been described here in some detail (all that can be managed, IMHO). If you're willing and able to pick out other details, you're welcome to go right ahead, or at least provide further info as to what else you think could be described. Thanks. --Defiant 22:42, April 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * While individual corridors are mentioned, the overall height, shape, color, and lighting of the corridors isn't described, and since they are vastly different from other ships both before and after it's worth mentioning. While other areas features are described, they're not in different sections, and the text tends to be rather unfocused because of this. I'll have some time to do a once over on this later. - 23:16, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for your those more detailed comments. :) --Defiant 23:51, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

As you can probably see, Archduk, I've reorganized the in-universe info into sections relating to the different areas, as you suggested. Any better? --Defiant 01:44, April 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the changes make the article much more readable, especially moving the bg notes to the relevant sections. Finding information is much easier now. - 02:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Cool! Do you think you might be willing to describe the corridors in more detail? I've been having a bit of difficulty of thinking up how you would describe the shape of the arched partitions (sort of triangular, but not!) Also, any other tips or comments, anyone? --Defiant 09:06, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

For some reason, I can't get the third bg note under the "tactical systems" heading to appear on this page; must be some sort of programming error, I imagine. --Defiant 10:19, April 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * One of the links used an = sign. They break the bginfo template. There's a workaround by replacing each sign with =. It should be then all good. :-) –Cleanse ( talk 11:41, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. :) Any more comments on how this article could be improved? --Defiant 11:55, April 13, 2012 (UTC)

Would it be permissible to incorporate one of the concept illustrations created by James Clyne, taken from his own website? --Defiant 22:28, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Provided he allows those images to be used, it shouldn't be any different than this. - 22:36, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

How do you mean? Would someone have to specifically contact the runner of his website and request that the image be used here? --Defiant 22:45, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * If the copyright info on his website says that you can't use images from the site without doing that, then yes, you would. If the website places no such limits on the images, you can claim fair use and use one. If you check the example, only one image is used and a link back to that site is provided on both the image description page, where it's required, and on the page where the image is used, because using that image didn't replace the reason one would want to view that website. - 22:58, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Certain pages just say copyright James Clyne, but none of those pages link to or display either of the bridge images, one of which I'd like to use. There's 2 other images of the Kelvin/Iowa on that site (besides the 1 I'd like to use), which is a fantastic website anyways, so it shouldn't deter anyone from using it even if the image was here, I imagine. Plus, it's already available elsewhere on the web, without it having been taken down from there (as well as being additionally printed in the book Star Trek - The Art of the Film). --Defiant 23:11, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I noticed small print saying, "any unauthorized use of production artwork is strictly prohibited," however, so I've emailed the website runner, kindly asking for their permission. I'll let you know the outcome. Thank you for your help. --Defiant 23:30, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, I completely didn't expect that so much info could be gleaned from a mere 10 minutes (approximately). Any more comments on how this article could be further improved? --Defiant 14:33, April 15, 2012 (UTC)