Talk:Terran Empire

Empire into space
The planting of the Imperial flag on Luna was by an astronaut in a spacesuit from the period of the ISS Enterprise (or least the USS Enterprise), so we might be able to conclude that particular image was a later point in the Empire's history. I can't remember what images preceded and followed it in the opening credits, and whether they would support this theory.

A corollary to this might be that the Terran Empire was not able to or didn't care to reach the moon until nearer the mid-21st century. Assuming a parallel history (Archers' comments aside), one might conclude that the Empire become global at roughly the same time that the United Earth government was formed in the Federation timeline (around 2113), Australia resisting until as late as 2150. Assuming Archer's centuries-old Empire are true, during its pre-global phase, it existed at least through the period, and likely was one of the belligerents in WWIII.

This begs the question of what country or group of countries was that empire? Cochrane's actions in IaM,D suggests it was the United States and Cochrane was a typical American of the imperial universe. However, it is also possible that the Empire evolve out of the Eastern Coalition which still posed a threat to (part of) the U.S. post mirror-WWIII. In this case, Cochrane was either a) a collaborating scientist or b) an (immoral) American resistance leader whose followers hoped to use the Vulcan technology to fight the Empire (and obviously failed).

Thoughts? Tfleming 03:18, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * I had inferred from the opening sequence that this was supposed to suggest a very clever pun on actual Earth history (and by retroactive extension, the ancient history of the Star Trek universe) and how the Saturn V rocket which put NASA astronauts on the moon derived from Werner von Braun's V-2 rocket, which was a technological weapon developed by an imperial organization (Nazi) for combat in WWII. 71.246.25.218 18:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It appeared to me as though the history of the Empire was paralleling the history of the United States, with the Empire even using some of the exact same craft and equipment (in true parallel universe style). Based on what we do know, one could speculate that instead of becoming a liberal democratic republic upon breaking away from England, the Colonies formed their own Empire -- perhaps with their versions of Washington, Jefferson, et al, applying what they consider their high ideals as they would be in that universe (consider the differences in literature, etc. -- instead of admiring Rome for its republican ideals, they might have admired it for its power and conquest), eventually building and using their power to unite the entire globe along a similar timeline as "real" Trek history.  Seeing as the icon of the Earth used in the revamped Empire insignia is the same one as used in the United Earth logo, it would make sense -- and a nice symmetry between universes.--75.178.92.119 23:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It appeared to me as though the history of the Empire was paralleling the history of the United States, with the Empire even using some of the exact same craft and equipment (in true parallel universe style). Based on what we do know, one could speculate that instead of becoming a liberal democratic republic upon breaking away from England, the Colonies formed their own Empire -- perhaps with their versions of Washington, Jefferson, et al, applying what they consider their high ideals as they would be in that universe (consider the differences in literature, etc. -- instead of admiring Rome for its republican ideals, they might have admired it for its power and conquest), eventually building and using their power to unite the entire globe along a similar timeline as "real" Trek history.  Seeing as the icon of the Earth used in the revamped Empire insignia is the same one as used in the United Earth logo, it would make sense -- and a nice symmetry between universes.--75.178.92.119 23:20, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I just want to remind everyone that talk pages are not here for personal speculation or fan fiction that can't and won't ever make it into articles. We have already had this problem before on this talk page. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

History of the Empire
Needs further expansion on history of the Empire from IAM,D. -- Michael Warren | Talk 20:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Episode specific information for IaM,D was kept, because I believe that it describes an important incident in the leadership of the Empire. -- Dmsdbo 23:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Denobulans equal?
They mentioned that in the Federation universe, Denobulans and Vulcan are equal to humans. Archer also later said that "his people aren't rebels". I'm 50/50 on if this implies the Terran Empire conqured the Denobulans as well. Any opinions? -AJHalliwell 23:59, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * um, my guess would have to be, yes
 * I assumed that he meant Denobulans were passive and not interested in rebelling against the Empire - just a "go with the flow" attitude. -- Dmsdbo 00:20, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Indeed...he says "his people aren't rebels, it's not in their nature." 68.161.201.175 01:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Archer trusted Flox because he did not believe Denobulans were capable of treachery. (see above)– Akira Class 04:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Caption

 * Empire crewpeople Uhura and Sulu

Technically, the Uhura pictured is starfleet wearing imperial uniform.

Should we edit the links so that it is "Uhura" and "Sulu (mirror)"?--AC84 06:15, 8 Nov 2005(PST).

¿How long does Spock say the Terran Empire has before total collapse in ? (from Reference Desk)
A disagrrement exists on mirror universe. ¿How long does $𝜇$ say the Terran Empire have in ? We need a resolution and waiting for the SciFiChannel to rerun it is just too long.

¡Thanks!

¡Pax!

¡Bye!

— — Ŭalabio 01:04, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I have the episode on DVD, watched it, and Kirk asks "How long until the Halkan prediction of uprsing" or something, and $𝜇$ says "Aproxamatly 240 years". Is that what you asked for? -AJHalliwell 18:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * According to, which I trust pretty well:
 * "How long before the Halkan prediction of galactic revolt is realized?"
 * "Approximately 240 years."
 * "The inevitable outcome?"
 * "The Empire shall be overthrown."
 * -- Michael Warren | Talk 18:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

That is what I needed to know. ¡Thanks! ¡Pax! ¡Bye! — — Ŭalabio 00:28, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Name of the Empire? Terran Empire or Imperial Terran Empire
In Star Trek Shattered Universe on the one of the episode videos it is crealy seen on the side of the Excelsior -IMPERIAL STARSHIP EXCELSIOR IMPERIAL TERRAN EMPIRE- I think it is clear that is the name of the empire. Thank You Captain Montgomery


 * Possibly it is clear that its the name of the Empire in that game... however, that game isn't canon, so its not really a part of this article except as something we will link to as a further resource. This alternate name was never mentioned in an episode or movie, so it really isn't relevant to our on valid resources.


 * Furthermore, an Imperial Empire? I wonder if it was named by a person who went on to create The Federal Federation or The Republican Republic. Seems kind of redundant, I'd probably write it off as an overzealous painter having fun decorating the ship, rather than renaming his government.. -- Captain M.K. Barteltalk 00:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, so it was from a game, was it? I just took it to be vandalism, since 1.) the Terran Empire has never been canonically called or refered to as Imperial Terran Empire, and 2.) as Mike said, stating it is an Imperial Empire is redundant... and rather stupid, IMO. --From Andoria with Love 00:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Well From Andoria with Love it was never called the Imperial "Terra" Empire either maybe you should check you spelling on "Terran" and I will always call it the Imperial Terran Empire anyways no matter what you say

Captain Montgomery


 * Which would be your prerogative, just so long as you don't edit the article to say "Imperial Terran Empire" again. ;) --From Andoria with Love 23:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

How do you know I did it? Captain Montgomery


 * Check the history tab at the top of the page. You can view all edits by IP or user name. Your IP matches that of the 'Imperial Terran Empire' edits. Also, please use tildes ( ~ ) after your talk page entries to create a proper signature. Thanks ;) - Enzo Aquarius 02:42, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Imperialism is technically the policy of an empire at conquer/controll other empires and countries. So the Imperial Terran Empire is not redundant.--Captain Montgomery 19:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Imperial" is just a different form of the word "Empire". "Imperial" is the adjective form and "Empire" is the noun form. The only reason they look different is due to spelling changes to accommodate pronunciation.--UTS DeLorean 01:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Imperial is a term that is used to describe something that relates to an Empire --Captain Montgomery 20:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Flag v. Official Emblem
A recent revert questioned the source of a flag for the Terran Empire. The flag was planted on the moon in opening sequence of In a Mirror Darkly. It's even included in the Memory Alpha entry for Luna.
 * The recent revert wasn't questioning the source of the flag, it was questioning the source of this image (File:TerranEmpireFlag.gif), in so much as either who created it and what copyright information exists on the image. We shouldn't use it until the copyright and source info (for the image) is known and allowable.--Tim Thomason 23:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Presumably the image was created by a writer for Enterprise and the copyright belongs to Paramount. I'm not sure beyond it being broadcast is necessary for it to be accepted as canon, regardless of copyright or designer.Tfleming 19:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This image was not on screen, and must be the property of its creator (the flag linked to by Tim). Without proper permission, it should be deleted. Jaz talk]] 19:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean?? Right here is the screen shot from the opening credits to the show. There's the flag, as it was on the screen. Tfleming 18:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If you watched the episodes In a Mirror, Darkly you would have seen the image of the lunar landing in the alternate universe.

I think what Jaz and Tim are saying is that specific image (File:TerranEmpireFlag.gif) was created by someone, and is not part of a screen shot or from some other known source. Yes, it is a reproduction of the flag shown in the screen cap above, but it isn't the screen cap itself. I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a canon emblem, it's just the source of that particular .gif file that's being questioned. -- Renegade54 18:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, that's a ridiculous level of hair-splitting. No doubt Paramount would sue anyone who claimed was anything except the image in their program. We don't need to know who was kind enough to make a useful transgraph of the image in the screencap nor need "proper permission" or copyright information. It's the flag, it belongs to Paramount, get over it. Tfleming ==Origin of the name==


 * Our Copyright policy says otherwise. Paramount may have been responsible for the original image of the flag, but we have no idea who was responsible for modifying this image... which may not belong to Paramount, despite popular belief. Sadly, we cannot simply "get over it"; the copyright policy is not simply a policy, it's law, and the possibility of breaking the law is not something Memory Alpha can simply "get over". --From Andoria with Love 14:27, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Basically, if you didn't draw it yourself, and you can't verify that it came from an episode or book cover, don't upload it. Even though the design is from the episode, the drawing was done by an unknown person -- and we don't have that person's permission to use it. If you took that drawing from a website, chances are the drawing was done by the website's owner -- who hasnt lent us any permission to recirculate it here. -- Captain M.K.B. 14:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay -- I got permission from the artist to post the File:TerranEmpireFlag.gif. Now, can we get over it?

Tony wrote:

Hi Kristian - Just came across your gallery of images at ST Minutae. Quite impressive! I found it searching for an original source for an image that has been uploaded at Memory Alpha for display on the page about the Terran Empire. MA's policy is not to post images unless the original artist gives permission. The image in question, a flag for the Terran Empire, appears to be based on the Terran Empire symbol from your images. Here are the two links - image on Memory Alpha and Image on ST Minutae

If this is yours, would you consent to have it shared with the Memory Alpha community?

Thank you, Tony

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 From: Kristian Trigwell  Hey Tony. Yes thoses are mine and yes you can put them up on MA (they wouldn't be the first.) Thanks for taking the time to ask! Rev.

Origin of the name
Was the name of the Empire first mentioned in ? -- Deep Space 9 16:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it was first mentioned in --OuroborosCobra 18:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The name "Terran Empire" was not used in "Mirror, Mirror" -- it was simply referred to as "The Empire" -- Captain M.K.B.

The phrase "Terran Empire" was first used in IaMD, part 2 I believe. Humans were referred to as "Terrans" in the DS9 episodes, and a reference was made to "their empire" in Crossover, but the actual phrase Terran Empire wasn't used until the Enterprise episode.

On a slight tangent, I got the impression from the DS9 episodes Terran was supposed to be a derisive term the Alliance used for humans (It's a six-letter word, with the third and fourth letters the same.), but that humans had gotten used to thinking of themselves as Terrans by that time setting. In "Mirror, Mirror" Spock uses the term human--Robert Treat 07:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Obviously the phrase "Terran Empire" existed in fan lore ever since "Crossover." But unless I'm mistaken, it was first spoken by Hoshi in IaMD part one, during the briefing when Archer tells the senior staff about the ship from the parallel universe. Hoshi's line was something like, "Another Terran Empire... another Starfleet?" Of course when I wrote that line I assumed the phrase had been said in dialogue years before, but in looking through other scripts I can find no other instance when a character says those exact words. Fascinating... – Mike Sussman - VOY/ENT Writer-Producer 16:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow...that is interesting, because since before the Enterprise episodes, I can remember using the term "Terran Empire"...huh... did the books use that term?--Terran Officer 07:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I daresay I could answer this for myself by rereading the above, but is the Star Trek Encyclopedia’s assertion that originated the name Terran Empire incorrect?--Archer4real 12:40, April 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, mirror Kira mentioned "their Empire" while talking about Terrans, but the term "Terran Empire" wasn't used until IAMD. - Mitchz95 15:35, April 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * What the heck, Cobra! I said I would get rid of the fan fiction. What the heck are you doin'? Tryin' to ruin my life and make me look like a freakin' idiot? GOSH! (PS: Napoleon Dynamite is freakin' sweet!) --From Andoria with Love 05:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Who, me? :P --OuroborosCobra talk 06:11, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed that a lot of people (including me) like to speculate on possible histories of the Terran Empire. The pages here are not for speculation, so I opened a new group on MySpace called "Stare In A Mirror Darkly". There, those people who want to speculate can do it as much as they want in my group. All you need to do is get a MySpace account. The adress for MySpace is http://www.myspace.com/ and the adress for my group is http://groups.myspace.com/stareinamirrordarkly.

Terran Empire Fate after Triple Alliance

 * See Wikipetia article on STNG epsiode -Triva Section-the Borg take over!! {Reference only}
 * Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the mirror universe or the terran alliance. Wow. --OuroborosCobra talk |undefined  17:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Article no longer on Wikipetia-but interesting to speculate that as the Alliance is just a continuation of the old Terran Empire it will-if "mirror-Mirror"Spock analaysis is correct that the Terran Empire will only exist for 240 years-and by the time of STDSP the Alliance has been in power 110 years-this leaves only 130 years for the Alliance to exist. As the STDSP series ended-prehaps the ultimate fate of the Terran Empire changed to Alliance to is to be taken over by the ultimate conquerers-the Borg!

Parallels episode
I read the article mentioned. They were originally going to have one of the universes Worf encountered be the mirror universe, but by that time they were already working on "Crossover". Of course, we could still use the concept of quantum realities to postulate more than one MU. See here--Robert Treat 16:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Emblem
Someone noted that the emblem of the Terran Empire from Enterprise (~2151) and TOS (~2267) were different. Can we get the two images put next to that point for comparison? It would be a useful contribution.Tfleming 01:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies to From Andoria with Love
I apologize for my "constant edits" to this article. I do believe, however, that my contributions are accurate and informative, and will therefore restore them.

Thank you – 76.49.107.165 04:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed them because A.) they were in the wrong point-of-view (the article must be from an in-universe point of view) and B.) speculative (stating specifically that our universe and mirror universe diverged at first contact - we don't know that this is the case). Also, as the "constant edits" template says, that template should only be removed by the person who added it, and I will do so when I know for sure the issue has been resolved. (Wow, that sounded more snippy than I meant it to... sorry 'bout that.) --From Andoria with Love 04:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey, sorry if I sounded uptight too, we're all friends here. Let's have a discussion about the Mirror universe divergence point.

In my opinion (and I believe that this falls into the "In-Universe" point of view) that since the title sequence portrayed images and events from our actual history (as the regular sequence does) that it is reasonable to say that, prior to first contact, the two realities were nearly identical.

The mirror universe is/was ruled by a passionate, aggressive, arrogant, violent, cunning and all-around "bad-ass" Human race.

Could you really suggest that that description doesn't apply to humanity currently?


 * Yes, the parallel universe does seem to be closer to our own than the regular Trekverse. Unfortunately, the fact that the Terran Empire was in existence for "centuries" prior to 2155 (meaning it was around by 1955) and the fact that an astronaut dressed in a 21st century EV suit was seen planting a Terran Empire flag on the moon hardly lends credence to the theory that the universes divulged at First Contact in 2063 or that the Mirror Universe Earth is exactly like our own. ;) --From Andoria with Love 05:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * But, I accounted for the "Centuries" comment in the "Early History" section with the "minor differences" comment.


 * as far as the so-called, 21st century EV suit, well, it's painfully evident upon examination, that that suit is a perfect match for the standard issue, Starfleet Extra Vehicular Encounter Suits, seen in the Twenty Second century.


 * This can mean nothing, but the either LATER or "RE-colonization" of Luna, by the Empire.


 * I still think my points are valid, and are so validated by the Title sequence alone.


 * – Akira Class 05:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You are forgetting one painfully important point. It has never been suggested, implied, or stated, that at some point the two universes ever even had a divergent point. How can we talk about a divergence point when there is no evidence one even existed? All we have is knowledge that events happened in the past, not that they were the first that were different, assuming there is any "first" point. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to reiterate, that these are but "reasonable assumptions", something which the definitions of the "Trekverse" has been built upon since it's creation.


 * I have previously put forward, that by virtue of scenes from WW1, WW2, the First Gulf War and the Bosnian War being shown, that it is reasonable to believe that the two realities are quite similar prior to space exploration. This in turn is equivalent to a suggestion of such a similarity.


 * – Akira Class 06:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you tell me for a fact that those conflicts, or conflicts using the same military hardware (which is all we really know) could not have taken place in an alternate mirror history? All those scenes tell us is that B-1B bombers and F-5 Tigers existed in the other universe. There is no stated information that there was ever a divergence point, period. This is fanboyism gone amok. Even if you are correct and there is a divergence point how do you know it did not take place one day before First Contact? Do you know what happened that day? --OuroborosCobra talk 06:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't tell you that any events "could NOT" have taken place in any alternate history.


 * I suppose anything is possible, but, in things we can see and determine, characteristics can be categorized as one particular thing or another. Therefor, it is not out of the question that one theory is more conceivable than another.


 * It's "possible" that Mirror Archer used "The Force" to defeat the Gorn aboard the Defiant, but, I wouldn't propose that theory.


 * – Akira Class 06:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have not proposed anything as "possible", I have pointed out that there is basically no evidence of a divergence point, and zero as to what the point is. --OuroborosCobra talk 06:54, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no real evidence to to name a definite "point" of divergence, but plenty of evidence of distinct divergences extending quite a ways back...I have added this information as BACKGROUND to the Early History section without attempting to place a specific "divergence date".Capt Christopher Donovan 11:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Protection
This page has been temporarily protected from editing due to an edit war involving the re-addition of speculation and information told in the incorrect POV. --From Andoria with Love 04:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * How long do you intend to protect it? I have a Background section I'd like to add.Capt Christopher Donovan 07:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I should have only protected it from new and unregistered users. The protection has been decreased to allow regular users to edit the page. Again, sorry about that. --From Andoria with Love 05:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Protection was lifted... I don't know how or when, but it's been unprotected for at least a few days now. Hmmm... --From Andoria with Love 04:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Nazi's
It's the Nazi empire! No one has written this -- at least, a search of the pages didn't find a mention. But everything points to it. Archer's "centuries" comment. The freakin' leather strap over the shoulder is a dead give-away. See also the black epaulets.

Remember how easy it was for the Germans to take over w/o Lenin, in the NYC-WWII episode?

The salute Archer gives is also interesting. It starts as a Nazi salute (phsyically and perhaps historically), but then uses a fist instead of outstretched fingers. But that makes even more sense. The flat hand of a salute mimicks a knight's hand when he's putting up his visor (to show his face he's on your side, and so you're not going to be fighting). The flat hand became a salute, of course. But using the first combined with the Nazi salute makes it more strong, and "mirrors" the peaceful salute. Also implies that no one are really allies in the Terran Empire. I'd love to see the production notes.

Comments about being a wife of Caesar can be interpreted to mean wife of an Emporer, not a reference to the Romans.

Just my two cents....Matt Byrne 67.9.149.109 01:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Guh, this isn't the place for your thoughts. This is the place for discussing how to make the article better. &mdash; Morder (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The use of the Western Hemisphere continents in the "revised" emblem, along with the Roman themes may suggest the Empire arose from America, or "New Rome" according to whichever fringe theory/religion you believe.

Aguments
In the two part episode of Enterprise, In a mirror, darkly, we see Hoshi Sato struggle with T'Pol. And does so in, apparently, the same level.

Since Vulcans are supposed to be 3 times as strong as a human being, would that be an indication that the Aguments ideals became common in the Mirror Universe's Terran Empire? Or that, at least, Hoshi Sato is a decendant of Aguments, at least in the Mirror Universe?

On a side note. The Salute of the Terran Empire, as seen on Mirror Mirror, with a strike on the chest and then extending the arm, resembles the salute of the ancient Romans.


 * Um.....no. As to the salute, there would need to be evidence of a deliberate similarity/reference(which there might be).--31dot 20:23, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Betazoids?
It says in the article: "By 2155, the Terran Empire had already conquered the Vulcans, Denobulans, Andorians, Orions, Betazoids and Tellarites." I just watched both parts of "In a Mirror, Darkly" and found no mention of Betazoids. Did someone make a mistake writing the article?
 * Any reference to Betazoids, if made, would have come from the DS9 episodes set within the mirror universe. I don't recall any myself, but it has been a while since I had seen the episodes. --Terran Officer 04:08, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Crud, sorry, I just reread your post (and logged in and fixed the signed post), and see what your saying, I think the Betazoid reference may in fact be a mistake. --Terran Officer 04:17, July 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree. Removed it. Might be from a novel or other apocrypha. If someone finds evidence of this then add it back to canon or as an apoc note. --Pseudohuman 12:31, July 31, 2011 (UTC)