Memory Alpha:Pages for deletion/Starfleet Marines

This is a page to discuss the suggestion to delete "Starfleet Marines". In all cases, please make sure to read and understand the deletion policy before editing this page.
 * If you are suggesting a page for deletion, add your initial rationale to the section "Deletion rationale".
 * If you want to discuss this suggestion, add comments to the section "Discussion".
 * If a consensus has been reached, an administrator will explain the final decision in the section "Admin resolution".

Deletion rationale

 * Non canon. never mentioned on-screen, something for Memory Beta. – Tom 22:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Agreed. Delete.  Although, it may not be Memory Beta, and might be better suited to the Expanded Universe. -- Sulfur 22:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. 31dot 23:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. --Jörg 09:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. The first thing the article says, is that its non-canon, so MA is certainly not the right place.  However, if it is from a piece of licensed merchandise, then IMO it would belong at MB, and not EU.Hossrex 21:50, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Redirect.  I would suggest this page be maintained, but used to Redirect to MACO (Military Assault Command Operations).  This would be useful for those Star Trek researchers who don't know the term MACO, but might use "Marines" as a typical example of ground assault forces.  Page could be deleted and replaced with aredirect on "Marines" vorik111 20:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Neutral on redirect. I am uncertain as to whether or not it is truly neccesary, but if it is, I don't think it should be "Starfleet" Marines, maybe just Marines. 31dot 21:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * RENAME AND EDIT to Ground forces. Mentioned several times in DS9.  Edit material to include only canon information, and put note in "Apocrypha" that speculation is that they may be the "Starfleet Marines".  Include "See Also" link to "MACOs".Capt Christopher Donovan 22:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the sound of that. Support. 31dot 22:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The key being, of course, that we don't have non-canon information. Perhaps a disambiguation page would be fine, but just because people might search for "general", doesn't mean we should have a page describing Star Fleet Admirals.  This would seem to be the same thing.  YMMV.  Hossrex 09:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * DO NOT DELETE- REDIRECT TO MACO! - It is canon! The MACO from Star Trek: Enterprise are the Starfleet Marines! "Starfleet Marines" is just another term for MACO! Some People use the term "Starfleet Marines" meaning the MACO and also the future MACO! I believe that there should be a redirect on the Starfleet Marines page to the MACO page since the "Starfleet Marines" is just another term for MACO!
 * How is it canon? Where do you find it anywhere in the televised material?  "Some people" using the term does not make it canon. -- Sulfur 00:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless the term "Starfleet Marines" was used in dialogue or is otherwise seen on the TV show, it is not canon. I don't believe MACOs were ever referred to as Marines on the show. MACOs were actually outside the command structure of Starfleet, since Archer had to speak to a General to get them stationed on his ship, so calling them "Starfleet" would be a misnomer.  If a book uses that term, then, as stated above, a full article with this title might be more appropriate for Memory Beta or Expanded Universe. 31dot 00:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. I just watched last night, and in that episode there's an exchange between T'Pol and Tucker in which T'Pol tells Tucker that it's not appropriate to fraternize with a subordinate (Amanda Cole). Tucker replies that she's not a subordinate because the MACOs are not a part of Starfleet. Thus, the term "Starfleet Marines" would seem to be a total misnomer and the relationship of the MACOs to Starfleet is not at all analogous to that of, say, the USMC to the US Navy. It might be more analogous to having something like US Army special forces (Rangers, say) stationed on a US Navy ship, but we can't even say that for sure. The fact that he denies fraternization would seem to indicate no connection whatsoever, since I'm pretty sure that a Navy officer having a relationship with a Marine corporal stationed on the same vessel would still be considered inappropriate today. -- Renegade54 13:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * a simple DELETE. no connection to canon. I can't remember any episode the phrase was used on-screen in any way.-- Örlogskapten... Channel Open... 16:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * DO NOT DELETE- REDIRECT TO MACO! - Like I said before the "Starfleet Marines" is just a term used by people meaning MACO, the MACOs are not a part of Starfleet but some people use the term "Starfleet Marines" referring to MACO, however I do have proof that the Starfleet Marines are canon because it is licensed by Paramount Pictures, if you look on the Memory Beta Starfleet Marines page it lists licensed Star Trek products that feature the "Starfleet Marines", canon actually means licensed Star Trek by Paramount Pictures, non-canon means that it is not licensed by Paramount Pictures and/or fan fiction, also the MACO are Marines because any Assault Force that operates mostly on the ground but sometimes on Starships and has the ranks of the Marines (mostly United States Marine Corps) in Science-Fiction movies and TV shows are called Space Marines, my point proven!
 * Please sign your posts with ~, so that we do not have to sign them for you. I would also suggest that you spend some time becoming familiar with the  here at MA/en.  Items licensed by Paramount are not considered canon for both our and Paramount's purposes.  Only items shown on screen are considered canon.  As such, since it's not canon... it likely does not deserve a redirect as such. -- Sulfur 19:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong delete. You have actually proven everyone else's point. By your own admission it is a term used by a licensed product, and not the TV show.  This is the wiki for the TV show and movies only.  Memory Beta is where this article belongs. 31dot 19:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * First off, we can all stop it with the all-caps votes and shouting, it look like making demands and such, something that shouldn't be happening on a community discussion. Bad form. Second off, just because "a lot of people" say they are Starfleet Marines doesn't mean we should feed in to their baseless imagination. MACOs aren't Starfleet. To my knowledge, they were never called Marines. To make this a redirect to MACOs would be violating canon, and feeding fanon, and that goes against everything MA is. Third off, you are wrong with your own definition of what is and is not canon. "Licensed by Paramount" does not make something canon. That is why Memory Beta, which covers the licensed works, is also known as the non-canon wiki. Don't believe me? :
 * "As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live-action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, video games, the Animated Series, and the various comic lines have traditionally not been considered part of the canon."
 * Licensed does not mean canon, not in Star Trek. Star Wars may treat things differently, but this is Star Trek. We have our own that allows for TAS, and there is even  that they may consider it canon, but not the novels, licensed products, etc. Those are strictly non-canon. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. Now when that is out of the way:
 * Thanks to the Cobra, I think we now have all the proof we need to why this is not an article that fits into MA. I think it is time to end the discussion, and let the admins do their work. Qapl'a!-- Örlogskapten... Channel Open... 19:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Admin resolution

 * Deleted. --From Andoria with Love 13:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)