Talk:Mirror universe

Resistance is futile
Is there ever any mention, in canon or non-canon tracts, of the existence of mirror universe Borg? If so, what is specified?
 * As with the Dominion, no mention has been made in canon. For non canon mentions, you are better off asking the folks at Memory Beta. They specialize in the non-canon stuff, and are more likely to be able to give you the answer you seek. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I met a character in Star Trek Online a few weeks ago (Erin Moon of USS Hope, never saw her again) whose backstory said she'd belonged to a Borg cube in the Mirror Universe which was a kind of utopian commune; the inhabitants were individuals but "telepathically" connected through their implants (to the extent that this character was struggling to adjust to life on her own) and with whatever other improvements took their fancy. (She told it a lot better than I do).  I admit this has no bearing on the page, but I liked it too much to leave it out.  Unfortunately Memory Beta says the mirror Borg are definitely still bad guys, according to "The Mirror Universe Trilogy".  Suppose we could say these were a breakaway group, though.  Or just tell the Mirror Universe Trilogy to shut up!  - "Ellen Hare" from STO
 * We could add it to apocrypha. Remember, STO is a different universe to the main Apocryphal universe and that the mirror universe has many timelines (we're about to meet the mirror alternate reality in November afterall). --Alientraveller (talk) 20:33, September 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Official content in STO is non-canon. Fan fiction, even less so. Sorry. - Mitchz95 (talk) 00:56, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Read the books again
There is a point at the end of preservers where Tiberius and James Kirk stand with captain hu lin radisson. She makes them watch a holo of a small colony in montana being destroyed by what i can only think of as phaser fire. Tiberius then asks why she showed them first contact. there are 2 ways we can see this, we can see it as the timeline being normal and the borg attacking in the mirror universe also, or the more likely answer and the one i'm inclined to believe... the vulcans didn't bother with niceties, they saw what had happened to the human race in the 3rd world war and being more aggressive than normal in the mirror universe they decided to destroy humanities hope of reaching the stars. It is said by spock himself that human history is identical in both universes right up until first contact where they diverge. – 82.32.231.87 08:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)Phoenix
 * The books are non-canon. First Contact in the mirror universe is depicted during, and the Vulcans are in fact peaceful on arrival. Remember that the events of Preserver were written before Enterprise or In a Mirror, Darkly aired (or were conceived), and were considered non-canon anyways. Indeed, The mirror universe stuff from Preserver would probably be considered superseded by the stuff from the Glass Empire novels. --OuroborosCobra talk 09:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Mirror universe episodes
I think there should be another way of naming the page, but in the sense where it will lead to the same thing. (So games and books can also be listed)Although, if we only wanted canological listings, then currently, this page is fine. -- User:Terran Officer September 19, 2005

Merge Suggestion
There's no current or possible content on this page which can't be placed at Mirror universe. That page already has a nice list of canon and non-canon appearances, making this one redundant.– Cleanse talk 12:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, merge.--31dot 12:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Since there was no further discussion on this and no opposition, I have merged the two articles. I'm not particularly sure that was the best idea, though. Sure, all the episodes can be found on this page, but the episode page was specifically requested here. So... I dunno. --From Andoria with Love 06:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I had never noticed a merge request. I suppose that it could have been listed here due to the fact this page is about the mirror universe, but I had originally made the page (per request) with possibly adding any sort of reference to the mirror universe in mind.  What is done, is done, I guess. --Terran Officer 06:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I said before, a list of mirror universe episodes is contained here. What else could be put on mirror universe episodes? Just because it was requested doesn't mean we can't later agree that its redundant.

By the way Shran, I think if you opposed the merge, you should have said so and not merged. Two supports is hardly an overwhelming decision. I wouldn't have minded, nor probably would have 31dot. :-)

I do appreciate your work atm resolving these merge discussion by the way.– Cleanse talk 10:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't start having doubts about the merge until after the deed was nearly done. I'm not saying I completely oppose it, it just didn't feel 100% right to me. No biggie, though, we can just un-merge if need be. :) --From Andoria with Love 10:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it. :) --From Andoria with Love 11:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Ironic, great works...
...Shakespeare is identified as the same. It's hard to imagine Melville as EVER writing soft and weak characters, especially as the chief protagonist of his greatest work annihilates himself in his quest for blood, a darker ending than if he had succeeded.

I wonder if the ST writers realize just how dark (albeit totally awesome) some of the classics (al la Iliad) truly are. --ChrisK 03:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Mirrror, Mirror Universive Future?

 * 1) In Mirror, Mirror Spock predicts that the Empire will be overthrown in 240 years.
 * 2) In Crossover the Terran Empire is replaced by a new version-the Klingon-Cardassian Allaince.

Now if Spock's prediction comes true of Galatic revolt-which will probably overthrow the Alliance -could after over 200 years of corruption and exploitation this universe will be so morally and materaly weak that the ultimate conquerors -the Borg- will take over {AS in Episode "Parallels"?}


 * I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Spock's prediction was rendered moot when his changes to the empire allowed them to be conquered by the Klingon/Cardassian alliance.  I'm not sure how you can tie Parallels to the Mirror universe, given that episode had to do with alternate realities centered on Worf, not the Mirror universe.  I'm also not sure what the Borg have to do with it.--31dot 12:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There are not known to be any Borg in the Mirror Universe. TribbleFurSuit 16:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I ment simply that in "Parallels" there is a glimpse of a UFP that has been conquered by the Borg. Now the rebels may indeed overthrow the Alliance; however logically this would leave the mirror universe very weak to outside conquerors-after all there is no guarantee that the Rebels will not fight amongst themselves in betrayals, various power-plays and hatred and revenge-a pattern only too well established by both the Terran and Alliance Empires. In any case the Mirror universe could fall to the ultimate conquers-the Borg.

After all this is a Mirror Universe there things are quite different-an Empire instead of a Federation. In Star Trek movie VIII the Borg try to go back in time to prevent a peaceful Earth-Vulcan Contact-whereas first Contact in the Mirror Universe was quite violent. Prehaps for a future Star Trek XII movie {?!} the fate of the Terran Universe is that the Borg Win their conquest of Earth by not going into the past-but go into the future where they conquer the remnants of the Terran Empire and the Alliance!!


 * What is with your obsession with Borg and the mirror universe? Seriously! They've never even been mentioned as existing there, and they are not going to waste a movie with a mirror universe plot. In addition, these talk pages are for discussing changes that need to be made to the article, not idle fanboyism and the like. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cobra that there is no relevance of this discussion to the article, which is what a talk page is for.--31dot 15:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Removed content

 * Reprtably in stardate 47391.2 Epsiode Parallels (episode) an early draft of the script had one of the many Enterprises, appearing at the end of the episode, being from the Terran Empire. The idea was changed to show an Enterprise from a Borg-infested universe instead.

The above was removed from the main body of the article. Should have been in the background section. Also, it should have some kind of citation.


 * {The Alliance shows itself to be as just corrupt and brutal as the Old Terran Empire}

Aside from formating issues, it seems to be speculation. Willie LLAP 15:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Mirror universe Xindi threat?
What is the perceived canon status of the Xindi weapon and subsequent threat to Earth in the Mirror Universe?

Of course we see footage from ENT: 'The Xindi' used in the mirror universe opening theme, but is this seen as the Terran empire resolving the situation with their 'conquering' tactics, or are we supposed to believe that the footage represents another un-related scenario of combat?

i.e.: Is their any canon (though I doubt it) information regarding the Xindi threat in the Mirror universe? AnonyQ 09:32, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid not. The Xindi were never mentioned in either part of, nor do I recall seeing them in the opening title sequence. So, while it is likely they do exist in the mirror universe, there's no actual information on them. --From Andoria with Love 09:58, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Archive footage of the battle sequence from one of the was used in the opening sequence. You can see it here, from about 1:08 - 1:10. Surprised our Enterprise guru didn't already know :-P --OuroborosCobra talk 11:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

So we're supposed to take the footage as potentially un-related to the Xindi? I know there is nothing really 'official' on this, but do we have a view on how is it typically represented in canon? Or is it neither, just that it could be anything? Additionally there is footage from that is used in the opening. Thus, the aliens aren't Xindi, but potentially MACOs did visit the mining colony at some point? And, in reference to Ouroboros' comment, the ISS enterprise did encounter Xindi reptilian, insectoid and arboreal ships at some point? AnonyQ 12:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Correct. Unless we see the Xindi or unless they were referenced, we just have no way of knowing whether scenes like the attack on the mining colony had anything to do with the Xindi's attack on Earth. In the mirror universe, those events could have happened for a completely different reason. However, since Xindi vessels were seen in the opening sequence, as Cobra correctly pointed out, then it appears Starfleet did indeed encounter the Xindi in the mirror universe. Of course, there's no canon information outside of the fact they once engaged in a battle with them, but they were indeed encountered. --From Andoria with Love 23:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

"point of divergence"
doesn't the title sequence of the Enterprise mirror episodes address possible points of divergence far earlier than the Eugenics Wars??? Such as WW II? As for some speculation maybe Edith Keeler didn't die and jacked everything up?

--Captain Chris 04:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to me I remember somebody (Spock? I don't know) saying the bifurcation appeared to have happened at least as early as Roman times. Anybody remember anything like this? --TribbleFurSuit 05:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked and couldn't find any reference so it must be within . Though it's interesting that in Mirror, Mirror the divergence appears to have happened within the 3 year mission based on a line by Bones. But, of course, that doesn't jive with ENT :) &mdash; Morder 06:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What line?– Cleanse 06:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically it Bones tells Kirk something to the effect of Not totally different. I recently spilled acid right here. and the points to the table. Although I'm probably reading too far into it the fact that both Bones' do the exact same thing at the same time is a bit odd to say the least :) &mdash; Morder 06:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the spilling of acid of two people who both held the same job on the same post (thus falling under an even greater similarity than the spill) doesn't quite compare to the political history of the universe. :-P --OuroborosCobra talk 07:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well naturally...The whole thing smells stink of it. However it would appear the the Mirror Universe was created during the time of ENT. (and apparently the history came out of nowhere?) Which meant that the universe could have been created at anytime...so unfortunately Captain Chris, we'll never know...unless they come out with a new series or a new movie. &mdash; Morder 07:27, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually there's something we do know: McCoy's acid comment couldn't possibly mean that the divergence point was more recent than the acid spill, because the Terran Empire people never heard of a peaceful Federation. Secondly, the Terran Empire landed on the moon, so, the divergence point predates warp technology. We saw that in the ENT mirror episodes title sequence, so, the answser to Chris's question is, YES, before the Eugenics Wars. --TribbleFurSuit 08:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, my comment was related to an interview which stated that the universe was created with Kirk and Archer :) (but that's not canon)&mdash; Morder 08:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What is canon is that Mirror Archer said the Terran Empire had been around for centuries. That has been taken to mean "no later than 1955", or 2155 - 200. --TribbleFurSuit 09:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Article says "The mirror Phlox noted that the "great works" of literature in both universes were roughly the same, except that their characters were "soft and weak" (except for Shakespeare), pushing back the earliest possible date for a divergence." the last bit about shakespeare is rubbish and probably an incorrect assumption. phlox was probably refering to the dark nature of shakespeare's charachters, joking that the charachters were the same, becauese shakespeare often wrote of unsettling heroes such as hamlet, macbeth etc... 82.2.23.253 01:13, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it was influenced by Edith Keeler. She caused Earth to fall under Nazi control, and the mirror universe shows lots of Nazi influences- the way they salute, for example.
 * Speculation isn't valid...so we don't include it. &mdash; Morder 20:50, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, but in Resurrection (DS9) didn't the mirror version of Bareil claim to not know about the Prophets and the Bajoran religion? (Although, seeing as he was there to steal an Orb that statement should possibly be taken with a grain of salt). Admittedly other factors could have caused this, but if the Orbs of the Prophets were completely absent from the Mirror universe this would put the date of divergence back a lot further. There is a bit of speculation in my point, but it may be worth rewatching that episode again to double-check exactly what's said. Cyclonius 22:02, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

A Question for All
Why are we using clips from the opening sequence of IaMD I and II? Certainly, I know what the intention behind it is, a "history" of the sorts, but neither of the previous series opening sequence (nor does ENT's normal opening) seem to be used in the "history" of the universe. --Terran Officer 08:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The other series didn't really have much of anything usable, but we do use images and such from more than just the ENT mirror universe. Take Enterprise (OV-101), for example, or the Wright Flyer, or Work Bee from DS9. --OuroborosCobra talk 08:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

So then, the information within the opening sequences could potentially have canon value of some sort? --Terran Officer 08:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see why not. I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but consider articles like F-5 Tiger II have no basis outside of the ENT mirror credits, it would be my opinion that anything from the other credits is fair game. --OuroborosCobra talk 08:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The Rebels?
Why is there no page talking about the rebels shown in "In a Mirror, Darkly" or am I just having an awful time finding the page?

Isn't the mirror universe just a wildly alternate timeline?
I was thinking (yes, hypotesising again :P) that the mirror universe, in all it's strangeness, might just be an alternate timeline. I might even have the source of this alternate timeline: The lack of a God, and more importantly, the lack of Jesus. These were destabilizing factors in the Roman empire, if they weren't there, maybe the Roman empire would thrive beyond what it was before, therefor creating the first hint of the Terran Empire. If everyone was indoctrined with xenophobic thoughts, it is very well possible that, while becoming 'evil' instead of 'good', the actual families stayed the same as the original timeline.

Again, just brainstorming here

--Gemberkoekje 08:28, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be all that but that doesn't help the article as it's all speculation. Talk pages are for improving the article and not for random chatter. &mdash; Morder (talk) 09:35, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Second paragraph
Does anybody else think that the second paragraph in this article is overly speculative, and comes dangerously close to breaking POV? My personal preference would be to just delete the whole paragraph, but I didn't want to do something so drastic without bringing it up here first. -Angry Future Romulan 21:05, May 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, very much so. - 21:13, May 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Paragraph removed:


 * Although the universe as a whole, according to Dr. Paul Manheim and Q, has an infinite and limitless number of parallel trans-dimensional realms, the mirror universe appears to be somehow interconnected with the "standard universe" to the point of almost everyone from the standard universe having a counterpart in the mirror universe. This is despite the wildly divergent histories of the two, which would normally render the probability of the same individuals existing and being born on the same dates to the same parents throughout infinitesimally small. To make things even more unlikely, in this universe Vic Fontaine apparently existed as flesh and blood, although he is only shown briefly with no background information given.


 * – Cleanse ( talk 00:34, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well done, I remember this bothering me too when I had read it.--Brumagnus 03:06, June 14, 2010 (UTC)

vulcan
in the episode crossover when mirror kira is yelling at bashir you can see a vulcan in the backround. vulcans are slaves.Does Terok nor has vulcan slaves?

Mirror Universe
When was the Mirror Universe identified as such? I've watched, (parts I and II), and all five of the DS9 episodes. Nobody ever described it as the "mirror universe". - Mitchz95 20:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Characters usually referred to it as the "alternate universe" (such as Rom in ). Since there have been several alternate universes we need some way to differentiate this one from them- and since it started with Mirror, Mirror (and some of the other episodes have titles involving mirrors) this title is as good a one as any. I believe(but am not certain) that production staff might have referred to it as the Mirror universe as well.  --31dot 20:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Have. Encyclopedia too I believe. DS9 companion too. -- sulfur 20:20, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Opening Quote
I think something as important as the mirror universe should have an opening quote. Here's one I found from :

"The players are all the same, but everyone seems to be playing different parts."
 * - Kira Nerys, 2370

Comments? - Mitchz95 16:34, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems ok... theres also this one from IaMDpt2... that sort of underlines the difference between the universes, and what the mu is all about...


 * "Great men are not peacemakers. Great men are conquerors."
 * - $𝜇$, 2155


 * -Pseudohuman 18:19, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Or we could go all the way back to "Mirror, Mirror"...
 * "Behaviour and discipline has become brutal, savage."
 * - James T. Kirk, 2267
 * "We are trapped in a savage, parallel universe..."
 * - James T. Kirk, 2267
 * ...for these two. - 18:28, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * "They were brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, treacherous..."
 * - Spock, 2267


 * or this one. :) --Pseudohuman 21:07, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

All of those are good, but I personally think most of them would better fit the Terran Empire page, or perhaps the pages of the people saying it/being referred to. I don't have the final word, of course; I'm just bringing this up for discussion. Anything else? - Mitchz95 23:28, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd go with the last one myself. - 23:34, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Alternate timeline?
Just a thought, for discussion purposes

Is it possible that the new timeline created by all the temporal incursions from the Temporal Cold War, where Germany conquered America (before the crew of Enterprise intervened, could have been the start of the Mirror Universe (or, more accurately, when the "disappearing stranger" assassinated Lenin in 1916)?


 * Discussion pages are not for fan speculation. But to answer the question, the two universes were different in the 16th century already, however no source to my knowledge has suggested a link between temporal cold war and the mirror universe. though there are the types of temporal incursions like the one seen in Voyager episode that mess up the past and the future. so almost anything is possible, though that would just be speculation. --Pseudohuman (talk) 20:53, July 5, 2013 (UTC)