Talk:West

Rank insignia


I've also taken a look at the DVD frame by frame and i cannot find any evidence that the pin in the latest reversion of this article really exists, i'm reverting it pending further discussion. The pictures i captured seem to show the pin of an Admiral

..-- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 15:27, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * Other opinions? - I believe Captain Mike is well meaning but mistaken. Even the picture above supports my version.  The horizontal sections are obviously open bars.  Lt Colonel J Crews 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * Have to agree with CapatainMike, when you look at how the light reflects on the pin it is cleary a round surface, not flat with an open middle. You also see that the edge of the horizontal part is slightly curved at the end. Maby a screenshot (or only the pin at a higher resolution) from a different angle would tell more. Don't know if his rank is mentioned in the movie. -- Q 16:05, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * West is clearly identified as "Colonel West" as least twice in the film (near the beginning and near the end). Q, while the badge may not be exactly the way that Colonel Crews drew it, his version is obviously more accurate than the old interpretation.  The silver part is clearly on top, like in the commodore badge, rather than behind like in the vice admiral badge.  The badge appears to be a minor adaptation of the commodore badge, indicating in the Starfleet pecking order that a Colonel was more comparable to a commodore, than to a Captain (as in the US system).  Starfleet ranks are frequently at variance from the US system. -- CaptainJack 09:05, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * West was flag officer grade. Beside the shoulder insignia his uniform shows two other things that are only present on admiral(/general) uniforms: first the gold braid that is next to the black braid running from the collar down the entire front, and second the additional braid around his cuff just between his division braid and second insignia. The last two are better visible on this image. That said I go with the explanation that 'colonel' West was a lieutenant general, commander of a regiment -- Kobi - (   ) 20:17, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * That's just silly. I've known at least a hundred generals, and none of them would ever tolerate being called colonel under any conditions.  "Colonel of the Regiment" is an honorary title in the Royal Army usually bestowed on members of the royal family - not a working title.   Additionally, a LtGen would never be assigned to command a regiment - it would be beneath him.  West was obviously a military aide/advisor assigned to Starfleet command.  Rather than the thin gold piping and other uniform variations designating him as flag grade, it is more probable that he was a tertiary grade similar to commodore.   Lt Colonel J Crews 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I uploaded one of the images mentioned in Kobi's links, with a clearer pin, and I don't think it is an Admiral pin, But also not the rectangular Colonel pin. I took a look at the rank page and saw that the pin for the rank of Colonel is not there, could it be this might be the pin for it ? Vertical parts like an Admiral pin but with rounded horizontal parts ? -- Q 16:13, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the word "clearly" has become useless on this page. I agree w/Captain Mike, what I see looks like the V. Admiral rank pin. I don't believe their is a pin for colonel, if that's even a rank in Starfleet (but the marine argument is for another day) I suggest deleting that marine pin, as it's non-canon. - AJHalliwell 16:37, 26 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * It looks a lot like the Fleet Captain rank badge to me - suggesting that it is not the vice admiral rank badge. Perhaps it is the corresponding military rank to fleet captain / deputy director?  - User 155, 17.37, 26 Jul 2005


 * Well, this fellow also has the gold piping wear the jacket opens that only general/flag officers have -- so, already there's a disconnect between the his "real" rank/paygrade and this speculation that he's a colonel. Has it occurred to anyone that in a quasi-military in which the rank of "colonel" doesn't exist "for real," an officer whose responsibilities are a bit outside the Starfleet norm may appreciate an affectionate moniker like "colonel"?  Never mind what "at least a hundred generals" think about it.

Speculation
As much as I like to play this game, I think we are looking for meaning in Col. West's uniform where there is none. The canon guidelines say we should admit when the source films/tv epsiodes are inconsistent and move on. It's appearent to me by the time ST:VI was made the original scheme for the uniform colors and insignia was no long being followed especially for the secondary characters. Unless you rated a new costume you got what fit. I'm very sure the reason Colonel West is dressed as a Starfleet admiral is because Rene Auberjonois's wearing William Shatner's hand-me-down tunic from an earlier movie. Same thing reason Valeris does not have matching shirt and straps - Kim Catrall was given a red shirt because it looked good on Saavik in ST:II and she's wearing Nichelle Nichol's old tunic with blue/grey straps.--GreatBear 06:34, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Colonel General perhaps?
There is a rank used in some modern real world armed forces known as colonel general. It generally is the rank above lieutenant general, and depending on whether a rank equivalent to brigadier exists in that force it would be equivalent to either a vice admiral or admiral. I know it's a stretch, but one not inconsistent with canon given the paucity of canonical Federation non-naval ranked personnel for the explanation to be that the use of colonel was an abbreviation for colonel general, particularly if the rank of colonel was not in Starfleet usage at the time, or had another name such as oberst. 4.152.3.15 02:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
I changed 'Named after the infamous Lt. Colonel Oliver North...' to 'Named after Lt. Colonel Oliver North,' to better represent a NPOV.

Does he appear?
Two questions - a) The Klingon assasin - Did Rene play West while disguised as the Klingon? b) This article and ST-VI articles claim West's scenes were cut out of the film originally and that he doesn't appear in the film. So how does the climax go in that version? When they unmask the Assassin and exclaim that it's Colonel West. Does this not appear in the film? I don't know how it could not appear but it certainly would have less impact with the prior scenes cut that show that West is a Starfleet officer. Either way, I can't imagine that the film didn't have the unmasking scene which would still be an appearance in the film by West. TheHYPO 21:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally question that it wasa cut scene. It has been in every single version of the film that I have seen. --OuroborosCobra talk |undefined  21:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In the original theatrical version, Scotty killed the Klingon assassin and that was it. The scene where Col. Worf finds that the Klingon's blood isn't Klingon blood and the subsequent unmasking of the assassin to reveal West was taken out of the final cut, but was placed back in pretty much every single video release. --From Andoria with Love 06:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Saw a TV Version in which Scotty shoots West and Worf discovers the assassin is not Klingon.
 * The TV version is not the original theatrical release. --OuroborosCobra talk 02:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said above, the film – in any version – had Scotty killing the "Klingon" assassin. Scotty burst in, shot the "Klingon" with a phaser, and the "Klingon" fall down and go boom. In the original film, the scene in which the "Klingon" is revealed to be West was removed. --From Andoria with Love 07:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * HBO has run Star Trek VI on some of its channels in the past year. It's the original theatrical version, which is about four minutes shorter then the video version. That's a bit ironic, since when the film made it's pay-cable premiere on HBO in January 1993, the video version was the one televised. Some of the broadcast and basic cable versions of the film cut the scenes with Col. West as well. -- Adambomb1701 16:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Naval Marines
This might be opening a can of worms but stay with me.... When discussions of the existance of a "Starfleet Marine Corps" or similar start there is always the un-written assumption that this would be modelled on the USMC. What if (and I'm just talking here!) any "Ground Forces" are modelled more like European Marine forces. Taking the British or French model. This makes them small forces of rapid reaction troops based on ships or starbases and within the Starfleet structure rather than a semi-independant unit outside it. I offer this since it tidys up some of the rank problems. I'm going to reach the point - Col West... The RN in the 1800's had a huge problem with Naval Admirals or Captains appointed to Marine Ranks to give them extra pay as a reward or due to privilage. So could Mr West infact  be  an Admiral (quibble over teh exact rank if you must!) who is also a Marine (or MACO or whatever!) Col. He just likes the marine title. - Grible 15:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Forum:Colonel West
I have a question about Colonel West in Star Trek VI. I know that when the film was shown in theatres, that the scene with Rene Aberjonois was cut out. However, since we find out that it was him who commited the crime in the film, did someone else commit it when shown in theatres? I mean, I doubt they used him just for that scene when they uncover the mask. They could have used anyone for that. But I'm curious if they had used him as the Klingon in disguise in the theatrical presentation as well. If there was anyone who saw Star Trek VI in theatres and remember any differences, please let me know. Thanks again!– Constable Odo 23:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

West not actually a Colonel or Officer
To this very day, we generally present agents of intelligence organizations with the cover of a rank and uniform to give them political camo when dealing with officials in their offices (so as not to attract attention to them). Would it be possible that West may be a 'colonel' but actually is an operative of some other organization (*cough*Section 31*cough*), and was wearing the uniform simply because it suited the purposes of the mission (much like Slone wearing a uniform in DS9)? --Good ol' ZC 06:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought, the only way that would've worked, is if the CinC (btw, another issue I have with TUC, the use of Commander-in-Chief when the President actually holds that title) couldn't tell his rank, either and that makes little sense. This is looking more and more like costume department error than anything else...  --Good ol' ZC 06:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Ladies and Gentlemen
When in doubt, follow the script. If he weren't a Colonel of some sort, he wouldn't have been referred to as such. If he were a "Colonel-General", he would simply have been referred to as "General."

Now, for the 'stupid' question- ¿How could there be a "Colonel WEST" if there are no Lt Colonels?4.246.120.7 07:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)Lt Colonel Andering J REDDSON

Northwest
I removed the following:


 * Named after Lt. Colonel Oliver North who participated in the Iran-Contra scandal. (North/West)

It's been uncited in the article for over a year, and tagged as such since at least June. If or when someone can provide a citation, it can be re-added.– Cleanse 02:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Would this be a sufficient citation? It's a review that notes the parallels, but doesn't explicitly say that North was the origin of the character's name. —Josiah Rowe 02:25, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

I would lean against using a website by itself since pretty much anyone can write anything on the net. But I found a supporting citation in Cinefantastique courtesy of Google Books.– Cleanse ( talk 08:18, August 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Excellent! —Josiah Rowe 08:37, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Colonel = new Commodore?
Maybe the rank of Colonel replaces the rank of Commodore.

Here are the facts
 * West wears a starfleet uniform
 * West wears a Admiral rank insignia
 * West wears a flag officer's uniform

Except for Quinn and Jameson we didnt see any other 1-star Admirals in any series after TOS (not counting ENT). Stay with me. Commodore isnt heared from again after TOS. And in ST:6 there comes a starfleet flag officer who is called "colonel".

So maybe Commodore was renamed to Colonel sometime prior to 2290, assuming West's, Quinn's and Jameson's rank insignia are simply costuming errors, which really isnt too far fetched. And later series dont contradict this. --Maxwell Fawkes 13:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Kentucky Colonel
Has anyone considered that possibility that West was inducted into the Honorable Order of Kentucky Colonels? (The most well known Kentucky Colonel is Kentucky Fried Chicken founder Harland Sanders. Wendy's found Dave Thomas was also a Kentucky Colonel.  So to is Whoopi Goldberg, according to Wikipedia.)  It might be possible for this tradition to be continued into the 23rd Century. But there would still be some doubt as to whether or not he would still be referred to as "colonel" in this context while on active duty. Vern4760 20:44, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

FIRST NAME?
Maybe his first name is "Colonel" much like political coorespondent Major Garrett, formerly of FOX NEWS. It seems that every point of speculation on here is as valid and undocumented.