Talk:Emergency Medical Holographic program

EMH online?
Message in Bottle stated how many hours the EMH mark I was intended to b online. Could someone look in to it? -- Redge | Talk 16:57, 16 Aug 2004 (CEST)


 * According to The Star Trek Encyclopedia: "The holographic doctor was ... not to be used for more than 1500 hours." This was stated in "The Swarm". I'll edit the page to reflect this info. -- Mjwilco 17:11, 16 Aug 2004 (CEST)


 * Is that the same amount mentioned in Message in a Bottle? I'll take a look myself, if I have the episode somewhere. -- Redge | Talk 17:18, 16 Aug 2004 (CEST)

EMH of Enterprise
Was he a Mark I? Or where they already relegated to plasma scraping duties by the time of the movie? If so, then he could be a later version. -- Harry 12:34, 12 Jan 2005 (CET)
 * Commander Beverly Crusher in activates USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-E)'s EMH Mark I and gives it the command to to anticipate incoming Borg en route to Sickbay, and to provide a distraction so that she and other medical personnel can escape.  This is the source of the "I'm a doctor, not a doorstop!" quote.


 * Incidently, should the quotes listed here be attributable only to all versions of the EMH, or should they be moved to ones known to be attributed to the Voyager EMH Mark I The Doctor, etc.? -- Deathlok007 16:32, 17 Feb 2005 (EST)


 * The Enterprise-E EMH was undoubtedly a mark one because that was the only version that resembled Zimmerman.

It should be pointed out that the EMH of Enterprise-E was not counted among the several Mark I's that avoided the fate of the 675 reprogrammed holograms in this page's main article. -- anonymous 18:50, 3 Dec 2007 (EST)
 * What makes you think that? We know that the EMH Mark Is were reprogrammed by 2376, we saw it on the Ent-E in 2373. We don't know what happened after that. As it is. the Mark II was brand new in 2374, a year after we saw that on the Ent-E, so I doubt they had retired all the Mark Is yet. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

EMH of Equinox
The Equinox's EMH was not aboard the Equinox when it was destroyed but had transferred to Voyager at this point. Voyager's EMH deleted the Equinox doctor but it's far more likely his program was stored in some 24th century equivalent of a "recycle bin", which meant he could later be recovered.

It says in the main article that Voyager was the first ship to have an EMH, yet as is shown in "Equinox" Parts I and II, the Equinox has an EMH. Since it is clear that the Nova class predates the Intrepid class (by the date of launch and the fact that the Nova doesn't use bio-neural gel packs), this part of the main article would appear to be incorrect.
 * The Equinox could have received the EMH as an upgrade after Voyager got theirs. states that Voyager was the first  to receive one. --OuroborosCobra  talk |undefined  02:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This explanation doesn't work. Voyager's first mission was to the Badlands to pursue the Maquis.  The Equinox had already been transported away by the Caretaker array prior to the events in that episode.  If Voyager was the first ship to have an EMH then how could the Equinox have an EMH prior to Voyager's maiden mission? --
 * Yeah, it's messed up, unless there were two caretakers kidnapping ships like that (I joke, I know there weren't). It could be that Voyager had a long construction period or something, and that it still was the first to have one installed, early in construction. Then Equinox had one fitted, but before Voyager launched. It is a stretch, but the fact it that the canon statement from is that Voyager had the first EMH fitted to a starship. --OuroborosCobra  talk |undefined  03:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this conflict should be noted on the main page? It seems that one reference in a single episode shouldn't completely trump all of the other evidence that this statement is inaccurate.

maybe Equinox stopped off at DS9 picked up an EMH program and left for the Badlands, was then transported into Delta Quadrant and the crew then installed the equipment at that time, Voyager was built with the EMH equipment as part of the construction not as an add-on to a ship 156.33.195.254 18:17, January 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may be confusing VOY's testing of the warp core "the first to test it in deep space" with the Adm's line: "We've added a new system we're thinking of installing throughout the fleet" - perhaps a few vessels were field testing... just not fleet-wide. Relativity (6:14) KassorlaE (talk) 17:20, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may be confusing VOY's testing of the warp core "the first to test it in deep space" with the Adm's line: "We've added a new system we're thinking of installing throughout the fleet" - perhaps a few vessels were field testing... just not fleet-wide. Relativity (6:14) KassorlaE (talk) 17:20, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Slaves?
Given the sophistication of the EMH programming & their involuntary assignment to menial tasks, can it be said the Fed endorses slavery? Trekphiler 10:42, 15 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * Good question. It is silly to have th EMHs programmed to do that. Why couldn't the minners just program more simple minning holograms to do the dirty work, and have all the EMHs upgraded to Mark II the same way we would upgrade a software system on our computer. It just doesn't make sense what-so-ever in my opinion! They could have even deleted all of the old EMHs if upgrading them isn't possible. (But there were many changes and additions to The Doctors program so it seems possible). It makes no sense to use medical holograms to do physical labor, especially when proper holograms can be programmed easily. The EMHs seemed sad doing their new job, why would you assign holograms which were self aware and knowledge to do a job of a "slave"? This is a place where mindless, robotic, or simplistic holograms would be appropriate.

''It just doesn't make sense what-so-ever in my opinion! They could have even deleted all of the old EMHs if upgrading them isn't possible.'' that would be killing them so then the Federation would be killing the EMH "race" instead of making them slaves? 156.33.195.254 18:21, January 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * In defense... I will say it is an error on the part of the writers. Once you think about it, the whole idea seems completely stupid.--Benjrh 22:28, 17 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I know I'm going out on a limb here, but perhaps the Mark I's status as a lifeform was in question (like the Robocomps). If so, no activated EMH could be "murdered," so they had to be assigned to another task. --trkly
 * I think that was exocomp you were looking for, not robocomp. Yeah, the EMH writing on a whole does seem to be missing something though. (StarkeRealm 13:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

Separate pages
Does anyone else feel that the EMH from the Equinox and the Enterprise should get their own pages? Jaf 04:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
 * Sure, I'm all for pages for the individual EMHs, as long as they get linked to this one. The Enterprise-E EMH, Prometheus's EMH Mark II, and the Equinox's EMH all had adventures and probably also had "I'm a Doctor, not a ..." quotes of their own, and each page should reflect their individual exploits and a listing of their specific canon quotes.  I think Prometheus EMH Mark II had a "I'm a Doctor, not a commando!" quote.  --vorik111 06:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

EMH Program AK-1 Diagnostic and Surgical Subroutine Omega-323
I have heard this before, but I am unsure of the episode. Is this specifically the title of any Mark I, or is it specifically The Doctor's full "name." The Omega-323 makes me think that it is just the Doctor's (and others would be Omega-321 or Alpha-528 or so) and not all EMH Mark I (or all EMH's).

If anyone can find the quote that would be appreciated to clarify the situation.--Tim Thomason 18:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, Tim, here's the quote:
 * Doctor: "Not on file?! The program's running right now! Display schematics for all Sickbay holographic systems."
 * Computer: "No holographic systems exist in Sickbay."
 * Doctor: "EMH Program AK-11 Diagnostic and Surgical Subroutine Omega-323. Check the database and you'll find it!"
 * Computer: "Specified program does not exist."
 * Doctor: "Well then, who is the Chief Medical Officer aboard this ship?!"
 * This suggests to me that The Doctor considered EMH Program AK-1... as the Chief Medical Officer (hence his sarcastic "well then who?" question later). And since he was the CMO (not just any EMH), then his "name" is EMH Program AK-1... Hope that helps.--Tim Thomason 05:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks alot, Tim. Hmmm... much to ponder here.--Tim Thomason 05:19, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

EMH vs Commander Data
It seems to me that the EMH and Commander Data should be similar, but are fundamentally different. The positronic brain that was Data's brain could not have been replicated by Starfleet, and so there was no artifical intelligence, but the EMH was easily created even with emotions. Are there any reasons for this apparent contradiction: the initial difficulty to create artificial intelligent beings, and then their quite easy creation. -- 74.112.53.20 22:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just because Data's positronic brain could not be replicated by Starfleet doesn't mean it isn't artificial intelligence. It was still created by Dr. Noonian Soong. That means it is artificial intelligence. Alternatively, if you mean that the EMH was not artificial intelligence, that also is flawed. For one thing, I believe they refer to his artificial intelligence subroutines, for another, what is this made up rule that there is only one solution to artificial intelligence, positronics? We have seen other non-positronic artificial intelligence, like the multitronic M-5. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's possible that 24th century Starfleet can't shrink an artificial intelligence to the size of a human head, like Dr. Soong was able to achieve, but could only encompass that processing power into a device like the main computer core. 29th century Starfleet could store an entire AI with forcefield manipulation abilities into a cigarette-lighter-sized package (Mobile emitter). --vorik111 08:23, 16 June 2007 (UTC) talk
 * I was wondering about that. The EMH has limited knowledge, it's database contains medical details, but nothing else, it only expanded its (or his, lol) database during the course of the show. But it had emotions, a personality, even an ego from the start. So it seems it's far more human to begin with, than Data ever could be. Data's only advancement is that he has a shitload of knowledge about everything, and can make calculations even faster than the ships computer, I guess, and all that in one little human sized brain.

But it makes me wonder why Starfleet gives a hologram personality, and moreover, HOW. It seemed to be impossible for Data until he got the emotion chip. But if Starfleet engineers succeeded in giving a hologram a personality, they could have written a program for Data at some point, too.
 * For all we know, the EMH's emotion capability was backwards engineered from Data's emotion chip, which may very well have been studied in detail given that it was years before Data chose to use it himself. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "An EMH program can't feel anything. It's emotional reactions are simply a series of algorithms designed to make it easier to interact with." Flaws in those personality subroutines were why the Mark I was taken out of the medical service. --Alan 18:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then we get into a metaphysical discussion on what "feel" really means. Even with the emotion chip, is Data truly capable of "feeling," or does he just have a series of sub-routines and electrical signal pathways that cause his behavior to mimic emotion in his programming? Do I really "feel," or do I simply have a combination of chemical reactions and electrical impulses working in concert to create behavioral responses? I think that metaphysical debate was actually an intended part of the EMH character, so that quote doesn't really make it cut and dry on the matter. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:30, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it should be remembered that holograms have been shown with emotional reactions as early as first season of TNG. There were in fact plenty of holograms in the Dixon Hill program which showed much more emotion than Data.

Of course those holograms were quite basic. In the same way Donkey Kong may celebrate with a little dance after winning a few bananas, we don’t say that they’re actually experiencing emotions. Their emotional reactions are simply pre-programmed responses to certain stimuli (and of course I know there is, as OuroborosCobra suggested, a metaphysical debate that questions when this crosses over to feeling real emotions).

It seems likely the EMH was made the same way as the other holograms. He was designed to be able to react emotionally to things happening within his own environment. It was only that over time as he developed, real emotions evolved.

The way I see it, Data was programmed to be emotionless (I believe it was in ‘Brothers’ that Soong said he’d wanted to make an android without destabilising emotions). So when he became sentient he was a sentient emotionless man. The EMH was programmed to be emotional, so when he became sentient he was a sentient emotional man.

They couldn’t simply give emotions to Data though. They probably could easily enough develop a program to show the emotional reactions that he should have in a given situation. However it’d be like showing any unfeeling person how they should react. All they could do would be to copy it. They’d never feel it.

By the way, something I think should be considered here is the character of Moriarty. I think that if more sophisticated emotions in holograms came from anywhere it’d be from him. 58.110.176.64 04:16, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Mark II based on a character?
Mark I and the longterm EMH are both physically modelled after characters: Zimmerman and Bashir. What about Mark II? Is there any known character in whose image it was made? 68.123.28.88 22:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Andy Dick. :D Seriously, though, it was never explained who the Mark II was modeled after. --From Andoria with Love 23:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that Bashir was dropped as a canidate for the LMH's template, because of the whole genetic engineering debacle. And yes, Andy Dick is a character. :p (StarkeRealm 13:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

EMH: Why not copy the program?
I am not a Trekkie or a Star Trek guru, but if my understanding of the EMH is right, he is a program. Why then is it when he goes down to a planet, or when he was "modemed" back to Earth to treat Zimmerman his is always in danger of being lost. Why not back up the program. Then if he "dies" you just pull out the back up. I realize that he is a dynamic self aware program and that is memory would only go as far as his last backup, but it beats the alternative. I base my theory that he is a program on the fact that they are always tweaking his programs subroutines. Or that he added character subroutines to his program.

So what gives. I must be missing something. I don't see how this could have been missed by everyone else. There must be a reason why this is not possible.

Thank you. -69.1.59.67ID 2007-08-26  Note the following IP address is spoofed:


 * Well, copying his program would be like cloning a person. If he was alright, then you would end up with two identical individuals, both sentient.  There is not technical problem, but I believe that the problem here is the moral issue of making a copy of a sentient being.  The new program would be, in all senses, a clone. --Nmajmani 00:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There was at least one duplicate of Voyager's Doctor, as evidenced in . Considering the fact, however that it was always repeated there was one copy of the doctor, and that he was too complex to have more than one of, this situation is either a plot hole of epic proportions or a writers "cheat" for a storyline.  This was always something that bothered me in the series was the fact the Doctor [i]was[/i] a computer program, but there was only enough memory to have one of him?  Additonally there was great effort to point out that the Jupiter Station Diagnostic Program was of similar complexity to the Doctor, and once his program was overlaid with the doctor, he would no longer exist.  This seems to create room for the doctor to be duplicated, OR the doctors program doubled in size.  Also, in, Starling downloads 20% of the Voyager computer core, including the doctor.  There seems to be a discrepancy considering how much information Starling was able to aquire, and the fact that downloads (in the traditional sense) do not move data, just transfer a copy of it.  If Starling had taken 20% of Voyager's database (not simply download, but actually took) it is highly likely there would be significant system impact to the missing data.  (Imagine losing 1/5th of your computers data.) -- Kooky 23:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Holo-Doc merge
"Holo-Doc was the original name of the Emergency Medical Hologram." Simple enough. - Archduk3 21:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Merged --Alan 22:51, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Info that belongs here or on other pages
Forgive the title, I simply couldn't think of a proper name for what it was I was trying to to explain here. I was reading over this page and thinking on how that perhaps, maybe the best thing to do here would be for this page to be about the general history of this program, with a further page focusing on the 'versions' of the program. In someways, I suppose I could already understand any sort of arguments against this thought, then perhaps an alternative idea would be to make a section called "Known Versions" (or something to that effect), because the article seems to indicate that there's several versions. Another thought is to divide up the history page, if it's all left onto this one page, to specify the separate versions. This would help to keep in with the idea that each 'version' is meant to be different and an upgrade (or just an all new program of the sorts who knows) like the images and the episodes suggest/say. Any thoughts on this subject (if I even just made sense there...)? --Terran Officer 20:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge
I'm wondering if this couldn't be merged with the article about EMHs. It could go in the History portion of that article or even its own section. This article is just about another use the EMH was put towards.--31dot 10:31, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, merge. This aren't different characters or creations. Just doing something else. It'd be something like having two articles for O'Brien, one when he was transporter chief, the other when he was Chief of Operations. --OuroborosCobra talk 22:16, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge, as with Holo-Doc, this is the same thing. - Archduk3:talk 04:15, September 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge. – Tom 13:02, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Speculation removed
From the end of the page:
 * Because Mobile Emitters were not in common use at this time, it is likely that the mining colonies were outfitted with multiple holographic emitters that spanned their entire infrastructure, and that more emitters were added as new tunnels and mining operations expanded. It is also likely that the type of mining operations they were forced to do were delicate or sensitive enough that they could not be done easily by machinery or automation.

"It is likely" suggests speculation. -- sulfur 11:14, September 12, 2009 (UTC)