Talk:Earth-Kzin Wars

Man-Kzinti wars
Ummm... hello? it says here that the Man-Kzinti wars were concluded in the 2060's Humanity didn't even have warp drive or make first contact until 2063!!! Can they be rendered non-canon for such inaccuracies? especially since its TAS? -I AM WEYOUN 22:15, 1 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Today we don't have warp drive either, and yet Men went to the Moon -- not all wars need to be fought with warp capable ships. Also it would appear that "First Contact" made the error, because the TAS episode was first -- Kobi - (   ) 10:23, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * TAS is non-canon, live Star Trek shows are canon.


 * No, no, TAS is considered canon for MA. But I think First Contact should be considered to be correct because its infinitely cooler. -167.128.90.184 18:07, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)


 * It's clearly that the Kzinti Wars are not canon in Trek Univers; however, they are considered canon by MA policy (a decision very questionable)... Obviously Kzinti Wars remain non-canon outside MA. In the 2060's humanity was still suffering for the World War III, and an alien race could easily destroy all human civilization by a very simple attack from the planet orbit. This is the more clear demonstration of the MA mistake in considering canon TAS.

Reference quotes
If someone with access to the "The Slaver Weapon" could transcribe the exact quote and speaker of the statement regarding the 'Earth-Kzin Wars ending 200 years ago', please do so under this paragraph. Any other canon quotes relevant to the Kzinti species and the E-K Wars are also welcome for archivist's future reference. This is an attempt to help establish clarification, along the lines of Alan's work on Talk:Eugenics Wars. --Aurelius Kirk 02:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * KIRK: There's been peace in the Federation for over one hundred years.
 * STAVOS: That is a lie. What about the Eugenics Wars? The Galactic Wars? What of the depredations of the Romulans, the Klingons and the Kzinti? An army of Spock duplicates is necessary to subdue them.
 * KIRK: You're the fifth Keniclius. What makes you so sure what you believe is truth isn't just old news? Your predecessors could have been out of touch with our advances for two centuries.


 * UHURA: Where are we?
 * SPOCK: A Kzinti spacecraft.
 * SULU: That isn't good. Kzinti are not supposed to have phasers are they?
 * SPOCK: The Treaty of Sirius does not permit any weapons at all, beyond police vessels. Obviously the Treaty has been broken.


 * SULU: The Kzinti fought four wars with humankind and lost all of them. The last one was 200 years ago and you haven't learned a thing since.
 * CHUFT CAPTAIN: Guard your speech. None of my crew has tasted Human meat as our ancestors did. We would welcome the opportunity. Always you have had superior equipment, we seek a weapon that would defeat you at last.

Discussion

 * Like Spock's "a century ago" quote, I don't think it is wise to take "200 years ago" at face value, but as a general timeframe. All that can be said for sure is that it had to occurred after First Contact in 2063. --Alan del Beccio 04:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the bigger issue here is of our canon policy in general. This reinforces by belief that we should give higher precedent in canon to live-action.  Save one remark in TAS: The Infinite Vulcan, we have never heard of these wars, and they seem to contradict information given in Enterprise. Jaz talk]] 05:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Jaz is correct. I would go so far as to say that the animated series as a whole has so many conflicts with every live action series, including TOS, that Paramount is right to discount them as a whole from canon.  I know that is not the current editorial stance for Memory Alpha; it is simply my opinion.  So any decision that places animated episodes and the information contained therein alongside comic books and other non-canon material has my full support. Aholland 05:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Alan - thanks for helping with those quotes.

I think it's reasonable to consider '200 years' as a general timeframe, but it's just as likely that that Sulu could err on the high side or the low side. I'm uncomfortable with pegging the beginning at 2063 because of the era's murky history and it unnecessarily excludes reasonable possibilities to no real benefit.


 * Whatever the date of the final victory, it's at the rump of four interstellar wars in an age of maybe sub-light speeds, or at best, Warp 2. Four wars also means three tangible periods of absence of war in between, and with the time involved over distances of space, an additional period of coming to understand you have indeed returned to a state of war. This could have been a very long period.


 * It's not a stretch to imagine sublight DY-200s (I know) running into some bad cats in the years before 2063, and their radio dispatches not reaching Earth until well after Vulcans established their first cultural exchange missions. A great deal of this war could have been fought by independendly by forces from Earth, but with Earth itself having very little to do with the outcome.


 * The terms of the Treaty of Sirius suggest the kitties were ultimately whipped so soundly, this conflict might quickly have become a forgettable, even embarrassing footnote in latter days, but the grandiose label of "Wars" survived.


 * The Vulcan First Contact is not Humanity's "First Contact" by a longshot, just the truly meaningful FC of the era. Well known historic firsts almost always have lesser-known antecedents that bite at their heels for credit. Leif Ericson might have made it to North America in the 11th century, but Columbus's discovery was far more consequential.

These thoughts are verboten for an article, and I won't attempt include them. Just consider this my vote against mentioning 2063. I'd like to let the ambiguity stand. I'll take a run at this later and test something like "the series of conflicts ended in the latter-half of the 21st Century." --Aurelius Kirk 07:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite my feelings, here are a couple of thoughts on the issue at hand. Aurelius Kirk is right:  Sulu is a good officer, but I don't think we need to be quite as blindly trusting of his numbers as, say, Spock.  So circa 2069 would be a good solution, as would circa 2070's.  The post-atomic horror was in full swing, but space exploration - with warp - still survived and thrived in parts of the world from what we know of history from TNG and ENT.  And the level of help from the Vulcans during the wars is unknown.  So . . . if the Kzin here are not quite the formidable enemies from Niven's Known Space, we could postulate four very short wars over a short timespan (maybe each war "ending" because of a Kzin surrender, but starting back up because of an attack by one party or the other?) from the late 2060's or early 2070's to 2080's.  The timeline wouldn't have to be affected much if the Kzin ships were rather primative, the Vulcans helped (since the Earth fleet wouldn't have been much), and the effect on Earth itself (maybe due to very limited battles in deep space instead, with quick Kzinti surrenders?) was viewed as minimal.  The Kzin here whine about technology, so perhaps they always had limited tech and never became much to talk about in the Quadrant.  And here's a thought for you if you like the animated:  could M'Ress be Kzinti?  Aholland 15:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To start with the last question: M'Ress is Caitian. Note that even though the backstory of first warp flight was not "invented" when "The Slaver Weapon"/"The Soft Weapon" was written, it perfectly fits into Star Trek canon. Because the Kzinti in Niven's universe were finally defeated when Earth aquired FTL-travel. Of course this would need to bend the understanding of 2063's first contact. Furthermore it were mainly the Earth colonies which suffered under Kzinti occupation and we don't know the exact state of mid 21st century colonisation of the solar system or beyond either. Earth starships were going to leave the system as of 2037 -- Kobi - (   ) 16:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * My point on M'Ress was that her species was never identified on screen, and use of Caitian is non-canon. Maybe she's a spy!  I know about the guide where her species was discussed, I was just trying to inject a little interest into the discussion.  I disagree, however, with "bending" the events of First Contact; they would have to break entirely.  Earth ships were operating only in and around the solar system in the 2030s, not outside it.  No one has ever mentioned the Kzinti outside of TAS, and having wars at other than FTL makes no sense in the Trek universe unless you want them to go on a reeally long time.  Trying to fit it in as you suggest just won't work.  In my opinon.  Aholland 19:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Aholland - The Slaver Weapon was really just Larry Niven trying to recycle an existing story, but ST:FC specifically intended to show Earth's first (documented) contact with an alien species. Jaz talk]] 20:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "The Soft Weapon" was a good story. And Niven's contribution to Trek was very clever, if a little bit of a cheat.  (Read "The Mote in God's Eye" with its Scottish engineer and starship and see if you don't see a little bit of homage going on!)  But trying to really fit it into the patchwork of continuity that Trek has built up over the years won't work unless you postulate a few minor skirmishes, done quickly, after FTL, and of no real lasting consequence to Earth or the Federation.  Then you could say the Kzinti are there, but not in any way like Niven has them in Known Space.  Aholland 21:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC)