Talk:Borg history

Seven of Nine references
This page generally needs work to include various data points mentioned by Seven of Nine throughout Star Trek: Voyager. Specifically, the section on the Hansens and the USS Raven ought to be double-checked by someone with access to the relevant Voyager episodes: I noticed that the article Seven of Nine says she was assimilated in 2356, but Erin Hansen says it was 2354. Someone who has a copy of and/or  should find out which is correct and fix whichever entry is wrong. --Josiah Rowe 23:35, 11 Mar 2005 (GMT)

List by dates?
I'd like to see this set up with a nice and clean 'list by dates' in the style of Ferengi history. Jaf 17:57, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)Jaf

Ktarian?
In the 2354-2356 section of this article it lists a Katarian male drone. Should that be Ktarian and if so, does anyone have a pic and/or the script reference? It could be helpful with the inconsistencies of Ktarian appearence. Jaf 01:16, 16 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf
 * You're right. It is Ktarian in stead off Katarian. It was difficult to understand while Erin spoke it and I did'nt know the correct spelling. A transcript of the episode listed Ktarian. I already changed it. -- Q 08:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Brunali
What are the dates given for the Brunali homeworld attacks? I don't have immediate access to the episode, but that should give us a few more years for this list. It may also shed some light on how long the Borg were using the transwarp hubs. Jaf 16:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)Jaf


 * 9 years ago, 6 years ago and 1 year ago from 2376


 * Cool, thanks. Any idea when Icheb was assimilated? Jaf 19:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)Jaf

I think pna should be removed since all points have been answer and incorporated in article. Noman 19:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Time travel
has a reference to a "Borg temporal transmitter" according to its article. Maybe that should be mentioned near the "time travel was a one-time occurrance for the Borg" speculation? -- Andrew Nagy 68.44.13.236 21:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Intro Paragraph/Large TOC
I would like to see the introductory paragraph expanded before I support this article as being a "Featured Article". Perhaps it would be beneficial to move some of the content from the "Origin" section into the intro? With the "Contents" box so large, it looks goofy as is. Alternatively, should a compact table of contents be created/applied so that users viewing the article can see more of the content "above the fold?" Thoughts? Opposition? -Humu­humu­nuku­nuku­āpuaʻa 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Alternate timeline
This could use a section on the alternate timeline from Endgame where Redge is teaching the class on the Borg and Janeway has a book written about them. Jaf 20:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)Jaf

24th Century
Hate to say it, but this entire section needs a complete overhaul. It does not flow with the other sections and is written in a sort of "story-time" fashion. This section is nothing but a bunch of episode summaries. Also, there is a lot of info not relevant to the borg. I'm willing to create an account to contribute, but I'll need help. Any takers?

The 2365 section is especially bad. It is written like a story where the narrator shares the context of the borg. For example, starting with the first paragraph, " In 2365, a Borg cube ... detected a starship. ... The strange vessel hailed the Borg ... After the Borg analyzed the information, they knew with whom they were dealing..." the actual parts spanning 3 paragraphs of garbage. The first paragraph doesn't make any sense period. It is cheesy, and doesn't match the rest of the article.

Origin of the Borg?
This is quite a creative idea used in the Star Trek Legacy game. It may be non-canon and non-accepted, but does it accurately explain the origins of the Borg?

Click Here for Video


 * Probably Not, the borg were listed as having been around in no less than 1400 AD, and judging from how quickly 7 of 9 was identified, it is pretty clear they were assimilating humans long before v'ger was even an idea.--Fullphaser 21:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * V'Ger crossed space AND time. That explanation was probably what the writers had in mind with the borg for the probable voyager movie. Star Trek legacy was written in colaboration with star trek writers. It hasn't been made canon yet but that's probably the true origin of the borg. We should at least mention it.
 * Put it in the apocryphal section then. It'll never be made canon according to MA, since it was a licensed product. -- Sulfur 16:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * This may be a few years old, but it really bears a response: "star trek writers" means almost nothing when each show's had dozens of writers, the books have dozens more and each game has still more. Neither Maurice Hurley, the writer of "Q Who" nor Michael Pillar, the writer of "The Best of Both Worlds," the episodes that created and established the Borg, had anything to do with the game.  In fact, its two writers had nothing to do with any other Borg storylines: D.C. Fontana's relationship with the franchise after the first season of TNG is pretty peripheral and Derek Chester's only credits are a handful of other Trek games.  Citing them as such a creative authority on the Borg that their word supercedes canon makes no sense, especially when Guinan and the Borg Queen have already given us a canonical, and much less convoluted, explanation. --162.136.192.1 21:12, January 31, 2013

Background
I feel kind of bad removing more info (an IP user correctly removed a pointless statement that Endgame was the last chronological appearance of the Borg), but I removed the following:
 * However, in, Admiral Janeway light-heartedly commented to Captain Picard that he seemed to get all of the easy assignments, such as the Son'a and the Borg. This may imply that the Borg were not entirely defeated, although an alternative interpretation is that Janeway's mention of the Borg was merely a reference to the events of , like her mention of the Son'a from in the same statement.

Janeway's statement was very obviously a way of referencing the two past films. I don't think we should offer "interpretations" that are clearly not intended. As such, the note is unnecessary. – Cleanse 02:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why would she say this anyway? After her long and dangerous journey through the Delta Quadrant, discovering new alien species and battling dangerous enemies, such as the Borg, AND losing various crew members in the process, you would have thought that that would be difficult enough, wouldn't you? Yet she sarcastically implies that Picard and the Enterprise get all of the dangerous assignments. TrekFan 04:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That has... what to do with the article? Not clear to me, thanks for explaining whether you're in support of removing the note. --TribbleFurSuit 19:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous, Roundabout Language
The language of this article needs to be rewritten. At times it seems to intentionally be roundabout, which is confusing. There are also many grammar mistakes.

Examples:

"In 2365, a Borg cube traveling near the System J-25, 7,000 light years away from Federation space, detected a starship. The sixth planet in that system, a Class-M, seemed to have the same characteristics as some Federation and Romulan outposts near the Neutral Zone. Their cities were removed from the planet's surface. When the Borg cube arrived, it scanned the unknown vessel."

If I had not already seen the episode, I would not know what is happening.

"The strange vessel hailed the Borg but they did not respond to it. Instead, they transported a drone to the engineering section of the unknown starship, right through the vessel's shields. The drone paid no attention to the lifeforms present and walked towards a com panel. Before he could reach it, a phaser shot knocked him down. Moments later another drone was sent and after he materialized, continued towards the panel. Again he was fired upon but this time his personal shield stopped the shot. The Borg had adapted. After the drone extracted information from the com panel, it reached over to the fallen drone and removed some components, after which both drones dematerialized.

After the Borg analyzed the information, they knew with whom they were dealing, the Federation starship USS Enterprise-D under the command of Captain Jean-Luc Picard. They also concluded that the Enterprise-D was unable to withstand them, since her defensive capabilities were insufficient. The Borg hailed the Enterprise and told them to not defend themselves as they would be punished for it, interrupting Picard's greeting, and they locked a tractor beam onto the ship. The beam held the starship in place and drained their defensive shields."

The writer has become a narrator of some sort here. Why the storytelling? Why especially from the point of view of the Borg?

AND...

"Despite this warning the Borg found Voyager entering the nebula again and they send three Borg cubes to intercept. Although the Borg fired their weapons, and even tried locking their tractor beam, Voyager kept moving on, unhindered. It seemed they were protected by some sort of new armor."

Why not just state that Admiral Janeway had modified Voyager with ablative armor?

Removed
I removed,


 * One could speculate that Starfleet, or some of its officers, did not dismiss Cochrane's story in its entirety and that they might be the reason the Science Council investigated it. Some evidence of this might be that the A6 team leader, Drake, told Commander Williams that he owed him a bottle of Scotch. This might suggest a bet of some sort, that Drake would find what they were searching for.

as it is a big steaming pile of speculation. -Angry Future Romulan 15:31, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Possible Timeline Deviation?
A Possible Timeline Deviation might help explain the inconsistencies between TNG and Voyager. I'm mostly speculating here, but I'd be interesting in hearing some feedback or criticisms of this possibility. I am currently rewatching Voyager and inconsistencies like these really bother me.

Original Timeline

xxxx: Borg created

2364: Borg attack Romulan outposts in Beta Quadrant.

2365: Enterprise-D encounters Borg (first human/Borg Contact)

2368: Enterprise-D release Hugh to Borg

2368: Hugh infects Borg with individuality

2368: Borg adapt by creating Borg Queen

2368: Borg become semi-incompetent (which explains why Voyager was able to beat Borg so easily compared to Wolf-359)

2373: Borg travel back in time to assimilate Earth

New Timeline created 2063: Borg botch assimilation of Earth, leaving Borg tech in Artic

2064: Cochrane gives Princeton speech mentioning Borg

2153: Borg remains found on Earth, Enterprise: “Regeneration: happens

2153: Borg send message back to Borgspace, Borg will become aware of humans in 200 years (around 2353). This is a major change in timeline

2293: Starfleet rescues El-Aurians; begin to associate El-Aurian destruction of homeworld with Archer’s Borg experience; Borg rumors begin

2353: Borg receive message and send ship to Alpha (or Beta) quadrant

2354: Working off rumors, the Hansens seek out the Borg.

2354: Hansens find Borg in Beta Quadrant; they follow them to Delta Quadrant

2356: Borg assimilate Hansens

Ramifications

This would mean that the TNG timeline is no longer accurate. Picard wasn’t the first human to see the Borg and Starfleet would have been aware of their existence. This would be consistent with the fact that many other Alpha and Beta Quadrant residents have been assimilated prior to TNG’s first encounter. Also, it might explain why the Ferengi are species 180 when they are an Alpha/Beta Quadrant species. Dejackso 19:41, February 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * This doesn't match canon. For example, Picard had memories of the Borg Queen from his time being assimilated in "Best of Both Worlds." Hugh was released into the collective after this, so the Queen could not have been created in response to Hugh. It's also a really bad idea to say "Borg become semi-incompetent" that way, it smacks of fanboyism and ignorance of the fact that, in most action and sci fi shows, after enough time has passed a previously unbeatable enemy becomes easy. We saw this elsewhere in Trek, notably in the treatment of the Ferengi after their introduction, or the Dominion. Remember how powerful those little attack ships seemed at first, small numbers able to take out the Defiant or a Galaxy class? Later on a runabout is just about the only thing that can't handle combat against them easily.
 * In addition, that the Borg would "become aware" of humanity in 2353 isn't all that major a change. We already know they were aware of humanity before Q introduced them directly, they'd already been attacking Federation and Romulan outposts. Why are the events with the El-Aurians only in the new timeline? Guinan was certainly on the show during the events before your stated split.
 * Basically there isn't an actual REASON to have such a split, and the fact that Picard encountered the Borg Queen while he was assimilated means that your chain of events couldn't have happened this way. --OuroborosCobra talk 19:57, February 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * You raise some good points, but I have a couple of comments. First, Picard doesn't remember the Borg Queen until the events of First Contact (the "Best of Both Worlds" memories are mentioned only in that movie) and this is after they had already traveled back in time.  I would argue that those memories are from the Picard after the split in the time line.


 * Second, I see your point about the "semi-incompetent" statement coming across as fanboyism, but that wasn't my intention as I enjoy all of the ST series. However, I do think that the dramatic decrease in the power of the Borg requires a better explanation than that sci-fi dictates that they become easier.  An introduction of a new element (the Queen) could help explain this shift.  It could also explain how the Borg originally could gain new tech only through assimilation (which was mentioned in an earlier Voyager episode), yet they all of a sudden began to invent things on their own.  I'll admit that my explanation of a late introduction of the Queen only does so shakily, but there does need to be some reason outside of meta concerns.


 * Third, I didn't mention the El-Aurians twice mainly because I didn't really see a need to mention them twice. I probably should have put them in both as that element doesn't actually seem to change. I could just have easily left them out to prevent confusion, too.  They don't really play a role in my explanation.


 * Fourth, I should have said "intensely" aware of humans enough to consider them a threat. Prior to that message, they were attacking Romulan outposts and the occasional Federation ship without any rhyme or reason to the importance of the target.  This suggest that the Borg were just doing their normal assimilation routine.  The main thing that the message did was that it put a ship in the "backyard" (quote from one of the Hansens) of the Federation where there was no mention of one in the previous timeline.  In the original timeline, the Federation had no clue about the Borg at all.  Those Romulan outposts were a complete mystery if you remember the episode "The Neutral Zone." It was only after Picard told the Federation about his experience with the Borg, they they got worried and began to think of possible scenarios that led up to Wolf 359.  If the Federation was aware of the Borg before Picard in the original timeline, then either they were completely incompetent (they would have had 20 years to plan something considering the Hansen story) or they just didn't care. Dejackso 20:15, February 8, 2011 (UTC)