Talk:Romulan Bird-of-Prey (23rd century)

Studio model
I have an image of the studio model. Should I include it? Ottens 19:26, 2 Feb 2005 (CET)


 * Yes a studio model image would be usful– Madkiller12345 13:09, December 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please note that this conversation is 5+ years old. -- sulfur 13:16, December 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did not know– Madkiller12345 13:33, December 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's why there are dates on comments when signed. -- sulfur 14:01, December 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's also the fact that you are saying something "would be useful" that's already in the article... --OuroborosCobra talk 01:53, December 17, 2010 (UTC)

Warp speed in the fight?
There is no evidence the Enterprise was at warp during he actual fight with the Romulans. They only went to warp to get to the attacked outpost and then to outrun the plasma weapon. It seems more likely the Romulans received warp drive through the Klingon relationship in exchange for cloaking. Why else would they need Klingon vessels if not to support a nw tech they had not developed yet?--63.201.59.202 17:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * If there is a question of whether the bird-of-prey had warp capability at the time of the episode - fine, but the Romulans definitely had warp capability as of ENT, etc to name one. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 18:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes but enterprise is crap. Should we be considering something canon the purposefully seeks to misalign itself with previous series?


 * Yes. You are obviously not capable of considering this rationally -- we do consider Enterprise canon, especially in this case because it does not contradict TOS, simply that it clarifies something that TOS left unsaid. I don't see how Enterprise filling in the blanks where TOS left off to be "disaligning itself" -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 23:44, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Its more like you like to just take what you are fed. Scotty said "simple impulse". Impulse power has ALWAYS referred to speed. Disregarding what he said is just throwing away the original writer's intentions. Sorry, I dont buy that "impulse power" is power that drives warp. Impulse is a drive powered by "fusion power". --Mark 2000 17:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Again, lack of rationality. Can you then explain why the Enterprise was chasing an impulse powered craft to the Neutral Zone at warp speed?? The B-o-P would have needed several years head start for the Enterprise to require the speeds it was pushing to catch it. --Gvsualan 22:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, did you even see the episode? The romulan ship is NEVER chased. The enterprise only has to push its engines to get to the scene and to escape the plasma mortar. After that there is *no chase*. They mirror the romulan ship move for move, only losing it when it stops moving. At what point in the episode is there a chase? --Mark 2000 23:02, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * You're incorrect. What Scotty says is "Pure impulse", and "impulse" can refer to a power source for a ship as well, as the USS Constellation had only its impulse engines in "Doomsday" and yet it was able to charge up shields and one phaser bank with that, along with rudimentary movement. There's nothing in canon that says that impulse power, which is presumably fusion-based, cannot power warp speeds as well. In fact, Cochrane's first test ship which reached Warp 1 probably did not have antimatter nor dilithium, rather its most likely power source was something nuclear. --Atrahasis 17:32, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * One point not mentioned is the performance of the Bird of Prey in The Deadly Years. As I recall the Enterprise was traveling at warp speed when it crossed into the Neutral Zone and was handily intercepted by the Romulans. Also, Kirk felt he had to use a very high warp factor to flee from them after his little corbomite deception. IMO, this tends to support that the ships (at least by that episode) had warp capability. OS-Trek 19:57, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * They fired the plasma bolt, which can outrun the Enterprise, it took the ship out of warp. I believe that the ship that fired the first shot may not have been in the battle if the Enterprise ended up far away. The strategy is sound because then other ships patrolling the Neutral Zone come in and pound the ship. There lack of warp drive may have helped the Corbomite Maneuver work. If they were to get out of range they had to start right away. Watch "Ellan of Troyius" if you want to know what a ship with only Impulse power can do. Well a Federation ship anyways. --TOSrules 03:24, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Good points, I also recall that the result of the corbomite gambit was to cause the Romulans to give ground. This might support your contention since the plasma weapon had limited range. Regarding EoT, the impulse powered starship was not even a close match for the warp powered agressor. They couldn't even hit him until they lured him in and cut in the warp drive. Had it not been for the timely discovery of the necklace-cum-dilithium crystals the Enterprise would have undoubtedly been destroyed without so much as causing a scratch to the Orions.OS-Trek 15:10, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The strategy shown in "The Deadly Years" has already been written into the article for a while now. Also the Enemy in EoT is the Klingons, not Romulans. Although they do have the same issue as in "Journy to Babel" that is fighting a faster ship. --TOSrules 19:04, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what that means, but I'll take your word for it. You're right about the Klingons and EoT, I was confusing the ending with the ending of Journey to Babel for some reason. OS-Trek 19:29, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Mark 2000 while I agree with your opinion on the series, we also must acknowledge that this site accepts that kind of stuff. What I try and do here is prevent Enterprise issues from compromising TOS integrity. Don't down the show just because we don't like it, as McCoy once said, "Why not try a carrot instead of a stick" --TOSrules 21:13, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * In Where No Man Has Gone Before Kirk mentions that "planets that were only hours away are now months away" due to the Enterprise having only impulse drive. This tends to support the idea that impulse power exceeds light speed. Any planet that could be reached at warp speed in hours would unquestionably be several light years away. Hardly a distance that could be covered in months using a sublight (or even near-light speed) drive. OS-Trek 14:59, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * What part didn't you understand? --TOSrules 19:45, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * if the romulans were not supposed to have warp drive in TOS, how did they fight an interstellar war against earth 100 years prior? presumably if earth ships were warp capable, and romulans were not, earth wouldn't have to sue for peace, they could just warp in and destroy the romulans in their homesystem. the romulans would have to travel for centuries to hit any earth colonies. plus, look at the line: Kirk: "Well, gentlemen, the question still remains: can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?" Scott: "No question. Their power is simple impulse." Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them." Power usually refers to generation of electricity (or equivlent), not propulsion. a submarine can be nuclear powered, but it's not nuclear propelled. the line can be interpreted as the enterprise crew assuming that since romulan ships didn't have M/AM warp cores, that they were limited to lower warp speeds. plus, look at the neutral zone map in the same episode. if the romulans did not have warp drive, with the rate the romulan ship was moving between outposts, the outposts would have to be sitting inside the romulan's home star system. ignoring the orbital issues of a string of stationary facilities within a system, i find it unlikely that the nuetral zone would be declared if earth and the federation were already inside the system. in regards to the plasma bolt issue, i would point out that it's a mighty impressive gunner that can hit a ship travelling at 512c from a comparitively stationary platform. either the romulans had several hours worth of tracking data, or the ships could reach comparable warp speeds. likewise, i find it hard to beleive a warp weapon when ships lack warp speed. - Mithril, 15 june 2006


 * As far as powering the Plasma R Torpedo, the power curve isn't linear. The Bird of Prey, as far as I ever heard, had a powerful reactor, but no warp drive (Think of it as having no warp nacelles, but an antimatter reactor) - The cloak, in operation, uses 75% of the maximum power of the reactor, while to "warm up" the Plasma Torpedo launcher and keep it 'ready' eats up the other 25%. Final arming of the torpedo, however, requires 100% of the maximum output of the reactor for about 5 seconds (thus, the ship has to drop the cloak to finish arming and fire). The "Nacelles" on the wings of the ship are impulse engine pods, not warp nacelles. The actual distance between the neutral zone and Earth is never revealed, and no canon sources ever tell the distance (or at least I never heard it anywhere.) On the map shown in the episode Balance of Terror, the federation outposts are 2-3 grid squares apart, while Romulus and Remus are about 3-4 grid squares behind the (1 grid square wide) neutral zone. Given that the BOP had to hit at least 4 of the outposts within a few days' time, at impulse speeds, Romulus and Remus are practically INSIDE the neutral zone, distancewise (The blip of the Enterprise on the map moves visibly as you watch) For all we know, Romulan Space really isn't all that far from Earth...it would mean that Earth would actually be near the EDGE of the federation, on the Romulan side, rather than in the middle as most mapmakers draw it. Redwood Elf 04:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Starfleet battles isn't canon, so i doubt names like "the r-torpedeo" will be. and there isn't and canon information about exactly how much power is needed to run the torp, or the cloak. just that running on cloak drained the fuel supply of the BoP in the episode. as for the distances, the episode shows the enterprises movement on the neutral zone map. at this point the enterprise is moving at warp, and it's crossing the squares at a slow pace. so those squares have to be a fairly good sized distance across if a ship moving at multiple times the speed of light takes that long ot get around. the romulan nacelles resemble the warp drive units of federation ships. also note that the phrase is "impulse power" power, as in "energy". since an impulse reactor (a form of fusion reactor) can power a subspace driver coil, why not a full fledged warp drive? it might not be very fast at warp (gee, that lines up perfectly with the episode), and probably use a lot of fuel (gee, does that sound familiar?), but a driver coil is basically just a small warp drive itself. given that 22nd century romulan ships (including old the old warbirds used to make the Romulan drone-ship's) definitely had warp drive, and that identical birds of prey in the 23rd century kept up with a high warp traveling enterprise in a later TOS episode, pretty much cements the fact the romulan ship had warp drive in Balance of Terror. since the cloak drained fuel (as mentioned in the episode), and to decloak meant the enterprise could have tracked and stopped the romulans easily, is probably why the battle occurred at impulse. Mithril 17:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * While all the focus of this discussion seems to be entirely on "Balance of Terror", it seems some of the events in "The Deadly Years" were forgotten. A few points from that episode that are much more in favor of supporting their having warp capability than not. 1) If B-o-P's didn't have warp drive, why would have anyone been concerned with Stocker's order to cross the neutral zone at Warp 5? Nevertheless, in the Zone, the Romulans were still able to approach the Enterprise from both sides and bracket it. 2) Again, referring back to the last point, when Kirk performs his "corbomite maneuver", why did he order an escape velocity of Warp 8 to escape to evade warp-less ships? Seeing as the outcome of his escape resulted in leaving the Romulans "caught off-guard" and "falling behind"...they would have had to have had a chance in the first place to "fall behind". The best conclusion that can be derived from this is that the BoP is capable of traveling at least Warp 5, but less than Warp 8. --Alan 20:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Measurements
The measurements given are from the Decipher RPG, which is non-canon. It is listed at 68.2m in length. Ex Astris Scientia lists it at 131m, and the Daystrom Institute Technical Library lists it as 192m, based on the scale comparison in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. This matter needs to be resolved, and the current measurements should be removed. --Werideatdusk 23:08, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case! If the dead link is fixed, please also remove this comment.


 * http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies2a.htm
 * In Earth-Romulan War on Tue Mar 14 21:49:06 2006, 404 Not Found
 * In Earth-Romulan War on Sun May 07 21:03:12 2006, 404 Not Found
 * In Romulan Bird-of-Prey (23rd century) on Sun May 07 22:07:36 2006, 404 Not Found

--HighwindBot 20:07, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * fixed the dead link. the page got moved to:

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/history-romulan.htm

Power Considerations
Here is my theory. The Romulan BoP had to have warp drive, it's just way to impractical that it wouldn't. The BoP also had an advanced weapon, their plasma torpedo, and an advanced Defense system, the Cloak. Both of these systems required ENORMOUS ENERGY. In order to fire their weapon, they had to be decloaked. Perhaps they had to be decloaked in order to travel at warp too.

In "Balance of Terror" the Romulan Commander was trying to get across the Neutral Zone, and Kirk was trying to get him before he crossed. The entire journey took place at impulse speeds. The Romulan commander kept the ship cloaked and made the journey on impulse so that he could avoid a head-to-head conflict with Kirk, which he would surely loose. Knowing that Kirk wouldn't cross the Neutral Zone, he could have gotten safely across the border, decloaked, and warped home. Scotty saying that the ships's power was "simple impulse," could have refered to the power the ship was using as it was observed, since upon cloaking, the power to the warp drive was cut off and completely diverted to the cloak.

In "The Deadly Years," it is apparent that the BoP fires at warp. This is entirely plausible. In fact, the Plasma weapon will probably work better with the warp drive online, since the power for the weapon could be chanelled directly through the warp reactor, as the Refit Enterprise's phasers did in "The Motion Picture." This may also serve as another explanation why the ship could not fire while cloaked.

That's my theory, for all it's worth. --Capatin MAJ, June 26, 2006


 * logical. the romulan ship would warp over the zone, and proceeded under cloak at impulse through the solar system to attack the outpost, decloak, fire, recloak, and proceed under impulse to the edge of the system, decloak, warp to the next system, and repeat. the battle with the enterprise would take place within one solar system, as the romulan tries to shake the enterprise so it can decloak and warp off. makes sense. the only problem i see is that the outposts are supposed to be sensor 'listning posts' (as far as i can tell), and they should have detected the romulans warping across the zone. -Mithril 23:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This problem can be easily resolved. Presumably, the Listening posts made use of a Sensor network or grid on the borders of the Zone. The Listening post detected a ship crossing the zone. So as long as the Romulan BoP drops to impuse and cloaks to cross the border to the Zone, it can decloak upon passing through the sensor grid, and engage warp, only to perform the same process on the opposite side of the zone. The listening post never knew it was coming.

This would also presuppose that the Romulan Cloaking technology has advanced considerably since the War, since the sensor grid was likely set up so that it could even detect the cloaked vessels of the time. --Captain MAJ 23:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * with trek sensors able to detect other ships Lightyears away (even as of ENT), it would have a long trip undercloak though. perhaps the cloak can be set at a lower level to hide a ship from long range sensors? probably wouldn't make it invisible though.-Mithril 15:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that's possible. At any rate, they had some way to get across the Zone undetected and under warp power, But at the same time they couldn't engage warp while the Enterprise was following them. Bottom Line: They had Warp Drive, But it's use was limited by power constraints, as happens often in Trek and even in the real world. -- Captain MAJ =/\= 15:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There may very well be clear evidence of your theory. Take a look at these lines from the episode:


 * BoP Ship's Power:


 * "Unknown weapon. Completely destroyed, even though we were alerted. Had our deflector shield on maximum. Hit by enormous power."


 * "Then they fired something at us--some form of high-energy plasma. Fantastic power."


 * "Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain--selectively bending light. But the power cost is enormous."


 * "Their invisibility screen may work both ways. With that kind of power consumption, they may not be able to see us."


 * "We know their achilles' heel, Mr. Stiles. Their weapon takes all their energy. They must become visible to launch it."


 * "We grow visible. Attend the cloaking system."
 * "It consumes much power, Commander..."


 * "He's shrewd, this starship commander. He tries to make us waste energy."


 * BoP Ship's Fuel:


 * "Commander, the reflection returns."
 * "Activate our cloak."
 * "Our fuel is low!"


 * "He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone..."


 * "Still no sign of movement, Commander."
 * "We're damaged ourselves. Our fuel reserve is gone!"


 * I think we all finally know why the ship was only going impulse speed. --AC84 03:46, 23 September 2006.

Just Wondering...
Why everyone's calling this Warbird-class vessel from ToS a Bird of Prey. The Klingons had BoPs. The Romulans have Warbirds. It's been that way until the Retcon-riffic Enterprise decided to play all silly with the names. --Melnorme 09:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As best I know this vessel has always been called a bird of prey, long before the Klingon ship of the same name appeared. The term "Warbird" was coined for TNG. --87.194.36.167 17:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * History lesson: In TOS, the Romulans had "Birds-of-Prey, then "battlecruisers" (design acquired from the Klingons). Klingons just had "battlecruisers".  This was the situation until Star Trek: III.  The early draft story had Kruge STEALING his ship from the Romulans, which is why it is described as a "Bird of Prey".  This bit was dropped, and suddenly the Klingons had "Birds of Prey" as well as the Romulans.  This lasted until Next Gen, when the term "Warbird" was developed for Romulan starships.


 * The reference to Klingon "warbirds" in Enterprise's "Broken Bow" was an error by the writers, which they later acknowledged.


 * Hope this helps...Capt Christopher Donovan 23:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Could also be yet another example of Romulan/Klingon weapon tech trading. The first use of "Warbird" for Romulan Ships was in Steven Cole's "Star Fleet Battles" boardgame, predating TNG by quite a while...The Warbird was the name for...you guessed it...the Bird of Prey (Cole called it the "Romulan Warbird Sublight Cruiser") - It has Impulse Engines, Cloak, and a large auxillary Power Reactor, which lets it charge it's single plasma R (Just barely) Redwood Elf 00:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Designation Query...
I was watching the other morning and I noticed that at no point in it does anyone call the Romulan ship a 'Bird of Prey'. I'd previously noticed, when watching that no one calls the ship that in that episode either (Styles says that the wings are 'painted like a Bird of Prey' but he's using the term as a simile, that's not the same thing at all.) So, given that the term isn't used in either of the only two episodes the ship appears in where does the term come from? I'm not quibbling here, just curious. Anyone know? Jim Smith 17:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Stiles "Bird-of-Prey" painted on the hull comment. I also believe background sources support this nomenclature. --Alan 19:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed, it did appear on screen in . --Alan 05:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Weapons
Is there a source for saying that this ship has two forward disruptor and an aft one, I mean it makes sense but is it established anywhere? -Mister.Atoz
 * As far as I can tell, that is inaccurate, based on the "tactical systems" section, which contradicts it. --Alan 04:43, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unnecessary disambiguator?
In the "References" section at the end, the link to EAS's article about "Warp Drive and Romulan History" has just been changed to read "Warp drive and (non-canon) Romulan History". Is this unnecessary? I would think so, since after all, EAS is quite clearly a speculative site, rather than a canon database like MA. Plus, the article itself is actually named "Warp Drive and Romulan History", so I would think that the link should be named the same way. Any other thoughts on this? -Mdettweiler 14:44, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * If it is noncanon we should not link to it. I think the only circumstance where we would link to such a place would be if, as you said, it was canon or provided insight into the development of canon on the show.--31dot 14:47, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that we should take the link off in this case? Or leave it on? IMO the linked article does give some interesting insight to the development of canon, but nonetheless contains a lot of speculation that is obviously non-canon and isn't intended to be. I would think that this would go under the same class as the Memory Beta links we have on various articles, and thus should be left on (though without the unnecessary "(non-canon)" disambiguator, since it isn't in the title of the article and that's what's supposedly being shown). -Mdettweiler 14:54, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't just go by me :) but as I understand it such a link would essentially be a fan link, unless it documents or provides insight into canon. I know we link to some sites where some of the crew describe and show pictures of the models they made, which is fine IMO.  If this site only provides its own interpretation or ideas on Romulan history, it is just fan fiction unless those ideas come from people who worked on the show. (A disclaimer: I haven't looked at the link yet, but I intend to when I have a chance.)--31dot 15:15, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have read the article at Ex Astris Scientia, and have found it quite informative. It does take the canon points and draw it's own conclusions, but it provides a detailed (canon) point by point on the subject.  I do find the (non-canon) disambiguator a bit unnecessary, as any link outside this site will take you someplace that doesn't conform to MA guidelines.  IMO it should be changed back to the actual name of the article it is linking to. - Archduk3:talk 17:22, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * We've always seemed to regard Ex Astris to a higher regard and that's probably because of Jorg. It's the one fanlink that I've never removed because of that fact. Though technically they should be removed it's always something I've just ignored because of the quality of the site vs other sites that just link themselves to get known. &mdash; Morder (talk) 18:03, October 12, 2009 (UTC)