Talk:247th element

Text removed
I removed the following line because I couldn't find anything to support it:


 * This element was also theorised by Bob Laser and Shem Booth in the 21st century as the next island of stability like ununpentium (Uup, number 115 on the periodic table).

-- Renegade54 16:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Take a look online and google info on ununpentium, as for shem i should know cos im Shem ;)


 * eLEMENT 115 "The Key to gravity control"


 * While that may be true, Shem...not like you care anymore being three years ago, but while you may be right in your Uup statement, it's real world and that fact is not stated in canon. So it must be disregarded.--Obey the Fist!! 13:55, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Name/PNA
I've discovered, by reading pages linked from Periodic table (extended) that this element has a name already, determined by a modern science in a "placeholder" system (naming all possible elements numerically, and reassigning them official names only when they are "discovered). I think this may be relevant enough to change the article name, because this element would "officially" (to human science) possess that name already until the discovery was reported. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 04:42, 17 Jan 2005 (CET)


 * Where does the name Biquadseptium comes from ? Can't seem to find it in the episode transcripts. -- Q 18:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It comes from a misunderstanding of what the episode is saying. The previous editor(s) of the page are assuming from the Captain's Log at the top of the episode that this element, being the 247th known to Federation science, is therefore an element with the atomic number of 247.  The editors have then gone to Wikipedia, seen that there's a "placeholder" name for what will eventually be the element with the atomic number of 247, and assigned it to this element.


 * Obviously, even if this were a correct reading of the episode, it would be non-canonical. The episode never mentions the word "Biquadseptium" — which is itself a highly unlikely name for the element, should it ever be discovered in either the Star Trek universe or the real world.  Given the fanciful, canonical naming of elements in the Star Trek universe (e.g. Curly, Hawkeye), as well as some of the more outrageous names for some of the real world elements (californium, einsteinium) it's really a stretch to see this dry, über-precise, Latin nomenclature as consistent.


 * Worse, though, this ignores what Harry says almost immediately after the Log entry — namely that the element has over 550 nucleons. If that's the case, the atomic number of the element simply is not 247.  So the whole theory comes crashing down on itself.  Hence the move to see the article deleted.  The best canonical names for this element are trans-Uranic element or 247th element — although the latter name would have to be immediately explained as being the 247th element discovered by the Federation.  Czech Out   ☎ | ✍  11:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes... and if there is material in there worth keeping and moving to a new article with proper nomenclature... then deletion is not the way to do it. It really isn't.  The way to deal with it would be to add a pna template to the article, bring up the issues and suggest possible corrections.  Those corrections might include renaming the article.  Which can be done with a move rather than a copy and paste followed by a delete.  A move will keep the history of the page.  Something that's rather important. -- Sulfur 11:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Worse, though, this ignores what Harry says almost immediately after the Log entry — namely that the element has over 550 nucleons. If that's the case, the atomic number of the element simply is not 247.
 * Um, an element with atomic number 247 could quite conceivably contain over 550 nucleons. You may be confusing atomic number (the number of protons) with mass number (the number of nucleons). It is atomic number that defines element number. Element 247 would have 247 protons, not 247 nucleons. Most heavy nuclei are neutron-rich (Uranium is atomic number 92, but has upward of 230 nucleons) as they are needed to hold the protons in place via the strong nuclear force. The element would have the nomeclature $${}_{247}^{550}\mathrm{X}$$. -- Michael Warren | Talk 12:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You and CId are quite right to point out that I've "screwed the pooch" on the math. I was thinking that each nucleon had a proton and a neutron. rather than nucleon being the term for the sum of the protons and neutrons.  Nevertheless, there's kind of a big difference between theoretical 'possiblity' and canonical validity.   And if it had 247 protons but 550 + nucleons, it wouldn't be neutron rich, but rather have roughly equal numbers of neutrons and protons. It wouldn't possess an unusual, but rather a  "typical", atomic mass.  If we're to believe this is a really desne atom, its atomic number would be significantly lower than 247.  Using the ratio present in uranium as a guide, one would expect a 550-nucleon-strong atom to have an atomic number in the mid 100s.  I seriously don't think that if the atom had 247 protons, but only 550 nucleons, that it'd be as stable as Torres, Kim and Janeway are implying.   Regardless, it's all speculation; canon is silent on the element's atomic number.  Czech Out   ☎ | ✍  14:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Redux
This was added today, and removed in light of the conversation above...
 * * In real life, element 247th name would be biquadseptium (bi means 2, quad means 4 and sept means 7). This system has been used to classify elements such as ununpentium or ununoctium, which are theorically believed to exist.

Just FYI. -- sulfur 19:30, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * This should stay removed. We don't know that the current naming procedures are still used in the 24th century, or used at all in the Trek universe for that matter. 31dot 20:13, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Deletion rationale
This article makes literally zero sense to me. An element with "over 550 nucleons" wouldn't be element 247. It would be an element with a number most likely over 550. Thus all this speculation about its name based on the real-world (theoretical) 247 is not only non-canonical, it's goes against a basic understanding of the way the periodic table is organized. The most that canon says about this element is that it's the 247th known to the Federation. Elements in the real world haven't been discovered in sequential atomic number order; there's no reason to assume that fictional ones would be either. (For instance, Element 118 has been produced in the real world; Element 117 remains theoretical.) It's unlikely to the point of impossibility that an atom with 550+ protons (a nucleon being the total number of protons and neutrons) would have an atomic number of 247.

As there's neither canonical nor real-world support for calling this thing "biquadseptium", this article needs to be deleted. Merely moving the article will allow a link to Biquadseptium to erroneously persist. Some of the text, and the pic, could be copied and pasted over to the new article, under a wholly new name. A brief, canonical replacement might be "trans-Uranic element".  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  03:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion
Delete, per rationale.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  03:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * First, I think you got your numbers mixed up. An element with an atomic (=proton) number of 247 would have a much higher mass number (=number of nucleons, protons and neutrons combined). Second, you seem to be right about this not being "Element 247", but "the 247th element found". If this really is the case, then the name is clearly wrong.
 * However, I don't see any case for deletion instead of a simple move here (you do know about the Whatlinkshere feature, right?) - move, yes; tag as PNA or, better, remove the errors yourself, sure; eventually put up the resulting redirect for deletion after it has been orphaned, perhaps - but delete valid content after a copy&paste to another location - that makes no sense, really. -- Cid Highwind 11:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've done a little digging to discover that in fact transuranic already exists, and is a decent enough article. There appears to also be Element 247, which was probably the initial article before it was redirected to biquadseptium. So I think you're right; lemme retool the article, and reverse the redirect. Ultimately, biquadseptium still needs to go though. Stilll not quite sure what to call the article, though. There's not much to go on, canonically. I'm kinda leaning toward "247th Element" instead of Element 247, because one implies an atomic number, and the other doesn't. Will post back here once errors are corrected, looking for advice about how to proceed.  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  11:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes... eventually, it might go. But a PfD ain't the way to do it.  Don't start with the final step of the process. -- Sulfur 11:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Post rewrite
Sorry if I got things out of order; that wasn't my intent. It just struck me as immediately wrong and worthy of deletion on simple grounds. Still, hopefully the PfD will provide a useful forum for the discussion of how to proceed. I've rewritten the article extensively and would suggest it's ready for moving the article away from biquadseptium. The two remaining questions I'd field for debate are: 1) is there a better name than 247th element? and 2) is that picture really a pic of the element itself? Torres' description when they first arrive at the asteroid says that the element is "emanating" from the bodies. The Doctor describes what he's holding as a "biopolymer fiber". Biopolymers, though, aren't elements. It seems to me the episode is ultimately saying there are two results of the bodies' decay. Should the pic be removed from the article?  Czech Out  ☎ | ✍  12:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why can't we just call this "Element 247" and not have the redirect?--Obey the Fist!! 14:37, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was going to move this, but it appears the new name was not settled on; either "Element 247" or "247th Element".--31dot 02:35, June 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it should be "247th element" (not in caps, as it's only descriptive), because that's closer to the dialogue.–Cleanse ( talk 09:37, June 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Since no one objected after a couple of weeks, I moved the page to "247th element". –Cleanse ( talk 04:17, July 8, 2011 (UTC)