Talk:Casual duty attire

PNA and what this page should be used for
T'Pol's, and maybe Seven of Nine's, clothing needs to be added. Also, MA isn't an image gallery, so each image should have a better description than just the year, and we most likely don't need two of Troi in the same outfit. Also, the wording needs to be reformatted to have an introduction. - 13:10, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree about T'Pol and Seven, I'll work on that, along with the text expansions. As for "two of the same outfit," the two "green belt" costumes are slightly different - one has a rounded neckline, the other comes to a distinct point below the neck. Aatrek 13:31, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

All the more reason for descriptions of the clothing. I'm not sure if Seven counts though, based on how this is worded, since she wasn't in Starfleet. A brief mention of, and link to, the Captain's variants from TOS and TNG might be a good idea as well. - 13:55, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we could still have Seven included; she became a member of Voyager's senior staff, attending staff meetings, etc.; after all, T'Pol was a "civilian" during the Xindi arc, and she was still second in command. Aatrek 14:23, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

I was think more season 4 for T'Pol, when she was a member of Starfleet. Covering Seven because she was at staff meetings means we need to cover Neelix as well. I'm not sure about Seven because we aren't sure if she was in charge of a department (stellar cartography) or was just taking the place of one that Voyager didn't have, like Kes acting a nurse because all the nurses were dead. - 14:33, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Neelix, Kes, and Seven were all civilians granted non-commissioned positions, I guess. T'Pol's fourth-season outfits were the same as her season three outfits, I believe, just with added shoulder strips and rank insignia. Aatrek 14:54, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about adding the 'captain's variant' stuff, as that's already covered in the regular duty uniform pages. Aside from that, can you think of anything that's missing? Aatrek 19:20, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Since this page is covering casual clothing worn instead of formal duty uniforms, and we don't have any canon information on where to draw the line, I think they're worth mentioning, in much the same way the uniform pages already mention these. Both are described as less formal uniform variants, and that is the definition of "casual duty attire". - 19:50, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I hear you. I'll work on the two green wraparound tunics Kirk wore (and Picard's jackets), and I think McCoy's short-sleeve medical shirt probably deserves to be here too, since he usually wore the traditional long-sleeve uniform off ship and on the bridge. What do you think about the uniforms vests worn by Picard (in 'First Contact') and Sisko ('In the Pale Moonlight')? They seemed to be worn under the traditional jacket, just a layer of the existing uniform. Aatrek 00:47, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

McCoy's medical shirt might just be that, something that isn't casual, but has a medical purpose, because he only wore it in sickbay. The vests seem to be an optional part of the standard uniform, not a different, more casual version, so I'm leaning no on those. The only thing we need to add here for anything covered on the uniform pages in detail is a brief blurb, maybe with an image, so if the consensus is to add more, it shouldn't be too big a deal. - 01:13, March 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * We have seen only three people wear the vest variant: Sisko, Picard, and Sloan (who at the time was posing as a high-ranking member of Starfleet Internal Affairs). This would suggest that the vest, similar to Kirk's wraparound and Picard's jacket, is only available to command-level officers.  Interestingly, Sisko is the only person who seems to wear the vest as a layer of his uniform--and it tends to make his uniform look oddly bulky when he does--I think it's reasonable to conclude that he wears it that way at his own discretion, and that this is not a standard part of the uniform.  I think that following the reasoning for including Kirk and Picard's variants, the vest should be included on this page.  Speaking of Sisko, he has his own unique variant of the First Contact uniform: a tunic that is zipped all the way to the collar with no division color stripes on the sleeves, worn untucked, with the combadge pinned to the grey area of the shoulders.  It's really unclear why he wears it this way, as it otherwise appears identical to the standard uniform top, but it's not a simple costume mistake because he wears it in two episodes (Rapture and The Darkness and the Light).

Medical attire
Having thought about this some more, and seeing the recent additions, I now firmly believe these aren't casual attire, but closer to what we know as scrubs, and shouldn't be mentioned here. - 17:29, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * McCoy wears the white tunic over his green uniform turtleneck in 'Wrath of Khan', just like Scotty wears his engineering vest over his white uniform turtleneck. Unless it should be treated in the same vein as Beverly Crusher's blue lab coat, worn over her uniform... - Aatrek 17:36, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

That's actually why I think it's scrubs, since it's something you wear so your normal uniform doesn't get messed up and/or to reduce contamination from your normal cloths to patients. It would make sense that the scrubs would just be worn over the undershirt when everyone was in a hurry to change, simply removing the standard uniform jacket first. As for the real world reason, the TMP uniforms didn't have a undershirt, so when they were reused with the "red jacket" ones in WOK, they wouldn't want them to look like they did in the last film. As for Scotty's vest, it does serve an engineering purpose, just like Beverly lab coat has a medical purpose, but since Scotty does change his undershirt, it isn't just him switching out the red jacket for something with more pockets that can get dirty, like the medical shirts can get dirty. - 17:55, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Are the short-sleeved shirts Kirk, Sulu, Uhura, and some extras wore during parts of the first movie considered as "casual duty attire"? If so, they shall be added as well. -- Ltarex, 0:38 (CET), 16 March, 2012

Sulu's wraparound IMO is more casual than the short-sleeved ones. - 23:43, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

"Casual"
Regarding the above discussions on this page relating to what should and shouldn't be listed here, it might help to state a simple criteria for what "casual" means. Currently, the page only states that casual is meant to be "informal, non-regulation...[clothing]...instead of a standard uniform". This doesn't even hold up to what we include now, since we assume that the TOS captain's variants were standard enough for them to be used on two different ships, and therefor regulation(ish), and informal could actually be used to describe most uniforms that aren't the standard ones, so not much help there either. I think "non-regulation" should be dropped, since we don't have a copy of what the regulations are to check, and they do seem to be rather flexible (just look at admirals uniforms TNG onward). That, plus stating here what we consider to be "casual" enough to add should help this page going forward.

That said, I support this: "For clothing to be considered casual duty attire there shouldn't be a reasonable use and reason beyond the aesthetic change. It should also be reasonably different from the other standard uniforms styles at the time, nor part of them." This would preclude the engineer's vest and medical attire (both have reasonable a use(s) and reason(s) for being different), but would include the command jackets (both TNG and the currently unlisted bomber jacket from the films) and the wraparound tunics (including the TMP one). The short-sleeved TMP shirt just depends on if we think it's reasonably different from the long sleeved shirts.

Either way, I think we do need a clear enough line between what is casual and what isn't, because as it stands way to many uniform types could be added, including the skirts, skants, and the utility/excursion/training/academic/active wear uniforms, not to mention the medial attire not already here. If anyone has any better ideas on how to address this, please contribute, because this is the best I can think of in the middle of the night. - 08:47, March 17, 2012 (UTC)