Talk:Threshold (episode)

Warp 10 stuff removed
Removed from main article:


 * The idea that warp 10 is "infinite velocity" was not always a part of the Trek universe. It was implemented by Gene Roddenberry as an absolute barrier, in an attempt to make Star Trek seem more real; in the Trek'' universe, this barrier manifested itself in the form of Eugene's Limit. Tom Eugene Paris breaks that limit in this episode, theoretically allowing him to be "everywhere at once".


 * However, this leaves many unanswered questions. Let us bypass the question of convenience and assume Voyager has found an element allowing Paris to achieve such a state of being. Being "everywhere at once" would seem irreversible and likely to kill the pilot. Even if he was able to survive the transition, it is unlikely that a Human brain could process such an infinitely vast amount of knowledge at one time, and one must wonder how Paris was able to navigate his way back to Voyager from such a state.


 * Additionally, the tie between this "infinite speed" and hyper-evolution, which causes Paris (and later Janeway) to "evolve" into a salamander-like creature is unclear. Assuming one caused the other, hyper-evolution itself has no basis in reality. The theory of evolution states that moden Humans and other creatures evolved through a process known as natural selection, whereby the best adapted creatures in any given environment have survived. Mutations and other such phenomena play a role in this concept, but changes occur over the course of many generations, and thus the idea that a single life form could show such radical changes in such a short time is quite impossible were it itself caused by some form of mutation. Likewise, evolution only has direction post hoc. The "forward" direction of evolution is not implicit but is a collection of random mutation events in interaction with selective pressures. Evolutionarily, there is no such thing as a "future" form. In this case, it would not be an "evolution" at all, much less would Janeway and Paris evolve in identical ways.


 * There is also the question of how Janeway and Paris were subsequently changed back. Supposedly, they "hyper-evolved", bred, and were changed back, yet this is a deus ex machina resolution at best. One cannot "undo" evolution, although the TNG episode featured such a situation. In that episode, an infection that started with Reginald Barclay infected the crew of the Enterprise and caused them to "de-evolve" ("de-evolution" itself another fallacy), and much as in this episode, they were saved at the last minute. While similarly dubious in nature, the resolution of that episode seems to have caused far less outcry among fans than "Threshold".

Your analysis is not welcome in the main article, and your theories are not absolute. In fact, since it is given the name "hyper-evolution" it is quite possible that it has a completely different mechanism for genetic mutation. Instead of generational mutation, it is quite possible that going over Warp 10 causes a temporal feedback loop on the molecular scale, causing not only previous generational phenotypes to appear from the "junk DNA" that makes up the majority of human DNA without serving a purpose (see: Barclay's Protomorphosis Syndrome, but also enables rapid cell division and shortening of cell life, thus causing the very rapid physical change. The addition of mutations through whatever mechanism that sparked the initial change would also create alien, nonterran aspects to the individual's anatomy. We know from Nemesis that at least the Romulans had the capability to do a full DNA transplant, so it's not unlikely that The Doctor could do the same from samples of Paris's and Janeway's DNA that had been kept on file. Then, using a sort of super-dermal regenerator to stimulate cell growth again, and the shedding of old tissue, he would be able to anatomically revert them back to how they once were. And since we know human brain cells do not grow or change or multiply throughout our lifetime, their memories and thoughts would be intact. The way to explain their previous behavior is that their human brains, trapped in a salamander's head, was under the influence of heavy neurological agents created by this newfound body, creating a euphoria we can only imagine.

And stop putting your opinions in the main article, man. --The Rev 18:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The above two paragraphs show a great misunderstanding of evolution and bio chemical interaction and the state and function of DNA. Reasons are as follows I would suggest that if you wish to argue your case against someone else (who was not me) then you should understand the science you are using for your arguments. this was the whole problem with the show threshold
 * "ausing not only previous generational phenotypes to appear from the "junk DNA" that makes up the majority of human DNA without serving a purpose" - Junk DNA as described does not contain a record of previous states of evolution in a species, it contains fragments of genetic coding, which would not be able to provide a blue print for another spicies if some how switched on
 * "The addition of mutations through whatever mechanism that sparked the initial change would also create alien, nonterran aspects to the individual's anatomy." this makes absolutely no scientific scene, it is the process of mutation that has caused species to evolve, if this statement were true then humans would be evolving into non terran species every time a gene mutated
 * "And since we know human brain cells do not grow or change or multiply throughout our lifetime" This statement is just incorrect. If brain cells did not grow or multiply adults would have babies brains, if brain cells did not change, no memories could be formed,
 * "explain their previous behavior is that their human brains, trapped in a salamander's head, was under the influence of heavy neurological agents created by this newfound body, creating a euphoria we can only imagine." what neurolgical agents? why would this lead to euphoria? why is it more likely than leading to brain damage?


 * I for one agree with you on the possibilities of their change, but I would not at all agree on the Doctor being able to change them back. If this had been 'legitimate' (or perhaps, it is, but extremely stupid legitimacy), Paris and subsequently Janeway would've been lost, period.  And completely beside the fact of the science, it was just bad writing to drag things out so long between Paris' changes and him kidnapping Janeway, and thus keeping the viewers from seeing first her emotional reactions to what Paris was doing with her as he was doing it, and then the changes to her themselves.  Aside from the science, it just left the taste (imho) of constantly focusing on the less interesting aspects of such a conceivably terrifying concept, of knowing you're going to be changed into something for all intents inhuman. --ChrisK 07:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed quote
"Well, I'm glad you had a good time'"
 * - The Doctor to Tom Paris

Removed that quote. Doesn't seem memorable to me. Put it back if you feel differently. 9er 00:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Memorable is relative. Do we have rules or guidelines for adding the quotes? – Saphsaph 18:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say if that quote is memorable without any further dialogue before or after that sentence, then we should start to quote the whole episodes...--Taragond 04:11, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Removed the following passage per MA:QUOTE, as memorable quotes should not be more than a couple of lines.

"Captain! Captain! I need to talk."

"Is it urgent?"

"Urgent. Yes. Very urgent. I have to get off this ship."

"Leave Voyager? Why?"

"I can't...Pleeease. Let me go. Its all so clear now. The present and the past, they're both in the future."


 * - Paris, Kes, and Janeway in sickbay--31dot 21:41, May 14, 2011 (UTC)

Removed note
I have removed the following:
 * This episode is the only Star Trek episode to have been officially excised from canon during the course of the series it aired in. Tom says in a later episode that he has never flown at transwarp, and the Borg remain the only race to have transwarp drive. The massive sensor data gathered ("every cubic centimeter in this sector! Over five billion gigaquads of information!") was discarded, allowing the characters to continue exploring unknown space. The Kazon, who would have received tremendous technical data on warpdrive and transwarp drive from Jonas, continued using the warp drives they had been using. In short, the episode never happened, in official canon.

Other episodes have been contradicted before in Trek canon, this is nothing new. To imply that it is "officially excised" from canon would require a statement from the creators stating such, otherwise it isn't "official" in any sense of the word. I also doubt we would even be having this discussion if it were not for the unpopularity of the episode in question. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that at some point the producers actually outright said that this episode wasn't canon, but I can't find it now...--Golden Monkey 22:20, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if that happened, as it very well may have, MA canon has its own definition, which includes things like TAS and non-"Rodenberry" canon. I don't see anything in it which would allow an exception based on some production staff's comment. --TribbleFurSuit 17:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure I clearly remember a producer saying it was a stupid idea, and that they just decided to ignore it ever happened. But this doesn't mean it's not canon.  How many times did vaporizing something with a phaser seem like a great idea and yet it never happened?  In how many phaser fights did characters hide behind a rock or a piece of wood and yet not even a scratch on the surface?  And yet all of a phaser's abilities and qualities are canon.  The same goes for all the inconsistencies of the universal translator.  I'm aware quite a few people dislike this episode, but let's try to put that aside =) – Saphsaph 18:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed Easter Egg
I removed the "easter egg" added in this edit, since it doesn't seem to be true. If I'm wrong and someone finds out it is true, go ahead and add it back in.--Tim Thomason 21:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It appears to be an Opie and Anthony joke. More recent than the DVD release too. -- Sulfur 21:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

New BG Note
I'm not sure I understand the following note: Is it suggesting that Borg Transwarp and Quantum Slipstream drive go faster than warp 10? Because I don't believe they do. Some clarification of what the note is getting at would be appreciated. – Cleanse 23:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The concept explored in this episode that "nothing in the universe can go faster than warp 10" is made a mockery of in future episodes where Voyager makes use of Borg Transwarp Conduits ("Dark Frontier", "Endgame"), and the Quantum Slipstream Drive ("Hope and Fear", "Timeless").
 * No such suggestion is made. No warp factor is stated, and the obvious explanation is that these methods reach velocities closer and closer to Warp 10, not beyond it. Sounds to me like just another angry fan, so I am removing the note. --OuroborosCobra talk 01:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True, there are many ways to understand it without contradicting itself. I just saw it as a new technology, that creates a smaller tunnel bridging two spaces.  Whether it is canon or not doesn't matter.  All we know is that it is a whole new method of traveling.  We also have points in movies and episodes where ships travel at warp 11, 12 or 13.  So for all we know warp is just a scale, not a fixed rate.  We can't assume anything here.  – Saphsaph 18:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Or, if you graph warp one to warp 10, transwarp and quantum slipstream just allow lower levels of energy to attain a vertical asymptote to warp 10. anyone remember the graph from STTNG:TM? Transwarp and slipstream could be on the same graph, just lower the height of the lines (reduce the Y-values for a given X) and put a vertical asymptote to warp 10. it never gets there, but gets really close, like warp 9.9999999999 which is many orders of magnitude larger than 9.975. Kassorlae 19:41, November 9, 2009 (UTC) kassorlae

Newly removed text

 * Evolution Happens as a species, but is shown to happen in an individual in "Threshold", that of Tom Paris and later Captain Janeway. Also evolution in it's most basic form is where a species adapts better to their environment, but Tom Paris worsens in his adaptation to his environment, to the point where it kills him
 * The Warp 10 barrier is described by Harry Kim as a theoretical impossibility, meaning it is impossible, but they over come this anyway
 * The scrip actually provided a way of getting home for the crew if followed to conclusion. The crew could use the warp 10 drive to reach earth, with the only negative side affect being that of "evolving", something which they had a complete cure for, as shown when the Doctor cures Tom Paris and Captain Janeway, with no lasting side effects.

Some of these have been removed before. They all come across as nitpickish. None of them really belong. -- sulfur 19:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Removed this "47 reference", which lacks evidence of it being deliberate.


 * A reference to 47 is found in this episode when the Doctor looks at Paris' scans on the monitor and the screen reads "bioscan 47".--31dot 23:58, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, only evidently deliberate use of the number 47 is worth a reference? Wouldn't that be contradictory to the intention of the 47 society? Nevertheless, even if someone picked this number by accident...by leaving it, it surely became deliberate since any production member should be aware of it's meaning... --Taragond 04:43, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * What any production member "should" be aware of is not relevant- we need evidence of what they were aware of and if that influenced specific uses.--31dot 08:24, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can agree with that, but isn't the point of using the 47 deliberately, to relate to that "theory" of it to occur so much more often than any other number? So if I search for it's occurrence throughout the Series I would want to find this article too, even if it is a rightful mystic concurrence ;) So I would refer to it in the article as what it is... --Taragond 15:15, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's one thing to mention something like this in a collection of such information, but quite another to mention in the articles, which are based on facts and are not intended to collect any and all information about them, such as appearances of the color red, apperances of blue eyes, or uncited apperances of 47(or any number).--31dot 18:59, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Continuity note removed

 * Tom Paris is supposedly the first person to cross the Warp 10 barrier, but in, the original Enterprise , due to improvements made by Nomad , was able to achieve Warp 11.

Different warp scales. -- sulfur 14:08, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Warp factor confusion
I've noticed something odd. The show states that it would take them 70 years to get home at maximum speed. The distance they needed to travel is 70000 light years and their maximum speed is warp 9.975. The only way that this would take 70 years at warp 9.975 is if they used the warp factor used in TOS which didn't have the warp 10 limit. If they used the new warp scale from TNG then traveling 70000 light years at warp 9.975 would only take approximately 5.19 years. With this being said wouldn't it have been possible to travel past warp 10 without a problem thus making the episode in which Tom Paris hyper-evolves a contradiction in warp factor or a plot hole? Jvclark2 02:24, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Your speculation as to how long it would take with the TNG scale is what's wrong here. The show states it will take 70 years at maximum warp and that's how long it will take. Been that way from the first episode. Going past warp 10 has never been done in TNG except for an alternate future timeline and stuff from very powerful beings... &mdash; Morder (talk) 02:28, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

It has been stated that voyager can olly sustain warp 9.975 for short bursts.--Iomat 20:49, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

The Time Machine
I think it's worth mentioning in the Threshold article that the reptiles ending has it's origins in H.G. Wells classic novel "The Time Machine." In that novel humans evolve first into the child like Elio but then when the time traveller goes even further into the future he finds that humans have evolved/devolved into seemingly mindless crablike creatures.--Chimeradave 05:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Such similarities only get mentioned if there is a reference from production staff that this was their intent, with a citation.–Cleanse ( talk 05:12, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Book
I've once read a Star Trek book about Picard and Guinan also traveling at Warp 10. I don't remember the title and I know it's not canon. It was sort of a prequel to TNG, describing the nature of Picard and Guinan's friendship. Anyone knows which book was it?

193.110.186.126 02:10, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest asking at the Reference Desk, as article talk pages are to be used for discussion about changing the article only.--31dot 02:12, February 20, 2012 (UTC)