Talk:Carbon Creek (episode)

Foremother
The term "second foremother" means "great-grandmother", not "great-great-grandmother as this article originally stated. First, T'Pol clearly states in the episode that her "second foremother" means her "mother's mother's mother", which is clearly her great-grandmother. Second, Trip says "great-grandmother" later in the episode when referring to T'Mir. Third, this is also stated in the episode summary at Dcorder 06:19, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)

False?
Didn't T'pol hint that this story is false at the end of the episode? How does this fit into the canon? --The Rev 19:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Since it doesn't go against established canon, it fits fine. And actually, the end of the episode hinted that the events had happened, as T'Pol had the purse her great-grandmother carried while on Earth. Also, this is a Trek-franchise article as opposed to a Trek universe article, meaning it's not covered by the canon policy, although everything within it is considered canon since episodes are canon. Lastly, it's an article for an episode and Memory Alpha covers all episodes, regardless of what we make of them. --From Andoria with Love 23:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed text
I removed the following text from the Background section:
 * Trip Tucker said T'Pol's story about her second foremother, T'Mir, sounded like something from The Twilight Zone. The Twilight Zone originally appeared on CBS, which acquired Paramount Pictures, and on UPN which was the home for this and other Star Trek series. Said comically by Trip, this may be a convoluted reference to all the television/movie studio acquisitions that led to Star Trek becoming part of the CBS family.

I think this is a bit too convoluted, and without a citation, it's pure fantasy; saying something is from the Twilight Zone is a fairly common allusion to something odd or strange. -- Renegade54 18:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is a line of dialogue in the episode in which Trip states that T'Pol's story sounds like an old episode of The Twilight Zone. The above just failed to point out that the line was taken from dialogue. --From Andoria with Love 04:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, nevermind, I just got what you were talking about. Ignore me. --From Andoria with Love 04:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, actually, this is very convoluted. At the time this episode aired (I was there, I remember), it was right before they aired the revival series of The Twilight Zone (hosted by Idi Amin I believe). This was blatant advertising hidden within the episode.--Tim Thomason 23:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In the scene where T'Mir leaves the patent office, a shot of an older design of a US$50.00 bill is shown in her purse. However, in the next scene, there is a clear shot of the back of a modern US$50.00 bill in the change jar.
 * The center lines in the streets of Carbon Creek were made with yellow paint, which is historically incorrect -- white center lane markings were used until at least 1963.''
 * Removed nitpicks. &mdash; Morder 08:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Could velcro be an homage?
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Gene Roddenberry said no one would wear zippers in the future, as it would be replaced by velcro in all garments. Could the (comical) sale of velcro as her invention by T'Mir in this episode be an homage to that? I mean, she could just as well have gotten a crystal or whatever from the ship and sold that as jewelry, so they clearly chose velcro for a reason. This is speculation, which is why I discuss it here before adding it to the page itself. --Jean seb 21:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Although a very intelligently thought out connection, it may be just speculation. You would have to confirm the authenticity to this.  However, the Mestral connection is much more clear, which is why it's there.  I don't have ENT DVD's though, so if someone does have them, please check up on it, as it is interesting.  However, until proof can be established, we can't include it on the article. --Nmajmani 23:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
Why would a vulcan care if she is being dressed in front of another vulcan male???? Also, they mentioned a busted subspace transciever but according to star trek history vulcans had no such technology!!
 * I'm sure even Vulcans have a bit of modesty. The obvious reason, of course, was to prevent the audience from seeing anything (but keeping a silhouette for us guys to better hold our interest in the scene). Also, what part of "Star Trek history" are you referring? Vulcans were technologically superior to Humans for quite a while; they even developed warp drive hundreds of years before Earth did. Hard to believe they didn't have subspace transceivers back then. Where did you hear they didn't have such technology? --From Andoria with Love 02:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. You know I had my source in mind when i wrote it but I can not think of it now. To be honest, I could be wrong. Lets face the real issue here; us seeing a naked vulcan (:P)

-- I would never, under any conceivable circumstances, object to seeing T'Pol (or Jolene) naked.

But a couple of points:

When Mestral says, "I think you have that garment on ... backwards", even the phrasing -- let alone the intonation -- is pure Data.

Great lines: "Where are you going?" "To the ship." "Why?" "This antenna is inadequate. I think I can use a waveform discriminator to enhance it." "Go after dark. You can't risk being followed." "I need to go now.  'I Love Lucy' is on tonight."

-- TPol's great-grandmother and Mestral.

Craig Goodrich 68.58.135.168 04:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Leaving evidence
I know T'Pol was just recounting a story, but it is inconceivable that the rescue mission would have simply met T'Mir and Stron and then left. They should have gone to the crash site and recovered all the wreckage and the remnants of the (rather disorderly for Vulcans) camp site; it is surprising that nobody came across that stuff during hunting season. I suppose that makes T'Pol's story less believable, but I think she did recount a real incident, but just didn't cover it in all detail. I imagine the Vulcans don't have transporters, otherwise they would have beamed the two survivors up; therefore, they would have had to tractor the heavy stuff up and sent a crew down with green garbage bags (or the equivalent) and collected everything else. T'Mir and Stron would have been able to learn something about Earth's present state of forensics and known what needed to be done to disguise the site.

I have read in other accounts that Sputnik was launched so late that the World Series would have been taking place - game 3 was played the day after Sputnik was launched. Likely, all lower level leagues would have wrapped up long before the Vulcans came into town. In fact, the mission to Earth came after Sputnik was launched and spent some days studying the satellite. GCapp1959 14:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Anachronistic Currency
In the scene where the money left for the college fund is found, there is a very clear shot of a fifty dollar bill with a modern design for the visually impaired. That edition of the bill was introduced in 1998, about 40 years after the episode takes place.
 * Add that in background info.Vince47 talk
 * Do not add that information in the background info. It's a nitpick and does not belong on memory-alpha. &mdash; Morder 07:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops. Yeah no. nitpick. Vince47 talk

Removed Speculation
Removed the following:

(he may have been alive and and on hand when the Phoenix first went to warp)--31dot 20:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Also removed the following as uncited similarities:
 * This episode's opening scenes and premise are very similar to an earlier novel, Strangers from the Sky, which described a pre-first contact crash of a Vulcan scout ship on Earth.
 * Mestral mentions that he is an avid fan of the television show I Love Lucy. This is possibly an homage to the fact that Star Trek was first produced by Desilu Productions.--31dot 07:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * How would I cite the "Strangers from the Sky" comment? by telling you to read the novel?


 * it's a book about a Vulcan scoutship that crashes on Earth with only two survivors, a male and a female, who must then try and keep themselves from damaging Earth's society. the premise is quite similar, as is the crash sequence in both stories. -- Captain MKB 13:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The issue isn't whether it's similar or not. (I'm sure it is.) It's whether it was deliberately similar or not, or if some authority made a comment comparing the two.  There are many episodes that are similar to books (or even other episodes) and we could fill entire pages with such comparisons.  That's why we try to limit such statements to similarities that were deliberate. --31dot 18:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Similarity
This episode is similar to the Star Trek: Voyager episode, in that both involve a member of the crew of a starship telling a story of an ancestor on earth, with both the crewmember and their ancestor being played by the same actor.

Removed, because we only note deliberate similarities. --31dot 17:06, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Also removed

 * It is possible to assume with the Vulcan lifespan that T'pol visited Mestral Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania during her time off from Starfleet Headquarters.

Speculative.--31dot 19:15, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

background information
Should we include the following in the background information:
 * Of course the story is highly improbable, as the reaction to three aliens in a small town in USA during the fifties would most likely be: "You guys talk funny. And Mestral, what kind of a name is that? You must be commies!", which would bring about a quite different unfolding of events.


 * :) --109.182.95.26 17:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. We shouldn't. -- sulfur 17:06, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Jack's last name
I remember years ago when I watched "Carbon Creek" that they did mention Jack's last name. I remember Maggie good-naturedly reprimanding her son by stating his full name. I cannot remember the last name but it was a famous one.

Since then, I've seen the episode about 5 more times and during the last 4 I have not been able to find the scene with Jack (and Maggie's) last name. The second time I saw it I do remember hearing his last name and thought "DUH!!!!" to myself, but the last 4 times I have not seen it included. I want to say his last name started with an 'H', but I can't be sure. Is it possible it was in the original airing but edited out of subsequent airings? I have to admit I did watch the episode from the internet, so it could have been aired in a country other than the US.

I've searched the internet and have only found references as to why Jack's last name was never revealed. But I distinctly remember his last name being mentioned, although for the life of me I can't remember it. He was some sort of scientist - mathematician, physicist, or possibly astronomer I think.

Was I dreaming?

Thanks, Snert

Addendum:

Nevermind.

I got my hands on an official transcript of the episode and it's not there anywhere. I think what I did was get this episode mixed up with a TNG episode. It's been so long since I first saw "Carbon Creek" and since then I've seen just about all of the episodes of all of the series about umpteen times each. I most likely just got "Time's Arrow" mixed up with "Carbon Creek". Don't ask me how or why, but I guess I just did.

Sorry, Snert

New Main Image
I think the new image reflects the content of the episode better.--OvBacon 23:31, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Quotes removed
"Where are you going?"

"To the ship."

"Why?"

"This antenna is inadequate. I believe I can use a wave form discriminator to enhance it."

"It will be safer to go after dark: we can't risk being followed."

"I need to go now. I love Lucy is on tonight"


 * - Mestral and T'Mir

"One of those creatures could sustain us for some time."

"Are you suggesting we eat it?"

"It's logical to take extreme measures in order to survive."

"Even resorting to savagery?"

"That may not be neccesary - our scans showed a settlement approximately six kilometers away."

"If we're exposed, we could contaminate their culture."

"And when they find our bodies after we starve, will that contaminate their culture?"

"Better to leave them with a mystery than with three living aliens."

"It's too dangerous."

"I'm willing to take the risk."
 * - Mestral, Stron and T'Mir, arguing about how to survive

"This is the third time this week I've had to fix Mrs Garrett's sink."

"Perhaps she enjoys your company."

"It might be tolerable if her son didn't insist on calling me "Moe"."

"Why does he do that?"

"There is a comic actor known as a 'Stooge' who shares that name. The boy believes we have similar hair."

"There is a resemblance."
 * - Stron complaining to Mestral

"There's been an accident in the mine. At least 20 men are trapped - it could take the humans days to free them."

"We can't interfere."

"They'll die...(The silence of his comrades is as infuriating as anything they might have said) You'd let them suffocate, even if we could prevent it."

"What if they see the weapon?"

"We'll be certain they don't."

"At best, these Humans only live to be 60 or 70 - is it worth the risk just to extend their lives a few more years?"

"We can't contaminate their culture."

"This has nothing to do with contamination...it has to do with compassion."

"Compassion...is an emotion."

"They're my friends, and I'm going to help them - don't try to stop me."
 * - Mestral, T'Mir, and Stron, after the mine collapses

Removed per MA:QUOTE.--31dot 22:30, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Info removed

 * When the $50 bills that T'Mir places in the collection jar are shown, you can see that the currency is the post-1997 design, even though this episode is set in 1957.
 * Throughout the episode when you see any vehicles, the licence plates are visible in the front. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, plates have only been on the rear bumper of vehicles. Also, the plates are the design used between 1977 and 1983, not the design used in 1957.
 * The town of Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania does not exist. It is believed that it was made to resemble either Carbondale in Lackawanna County or a mining community founded and owned by the "Carbon Creek Mining Company" located in Bradford County. Both of these locations are in Northeastern Pennsylvania, which places them within driving distance of Doylestown, the location of the baseball game Mentral attended with Maggie (via the Northeast Extension of the Pennsylvania Turnpike which opened in 1956), and near rail lines that would have been able to allow T'Mir to travel to Pittsburgh to sell the rights to her "invention" of Velcro. (The sign outside the location where T'Mir goes to clearly reads "Big Creek Manufacturing And Sales Co. Pittsburgh.)

The first two comments are nitpicks, the last comment is speculation unless cited ("It is believed"). 31dot 09:46, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

What to eat?
Why would the Vulcans not consider eating meat if they were starving? Spock and Tuvok both did it. Furthermore, if they're so committed to vegetarianism, why don't they look around the forrest they're in for plants that would not be poisonous to eat?