Talk:Eugenics Wars/archive

In Spock states quiet clearly that World War III, was the Eugenics Wars 1993-1996. If you click on the link here to that ep, you'll see the exact phrasing. Since TNG suggest they were still recovering from WWIII on the early 22ed century I thought maybe some remnants emerged in the early 21st century, that caused another war, as Spock called it "The War to end all Tyranny" that historians sometime refer to as WWIII. This War to end all Tyranny most likely would not invlove Superman, thus not a Eugenics war. --TOSrules 02:40, Oct 30, 2004 (CEST)

I have a few problems with this entry. There is no canon evidence to suggest that the Eugenics Wars and World War III were the same war. There is also no evidence of Vulcan involvement or assistance in the wars. A peckover 09:54, Jun 2, 2004 (CEST)


 * Apeckover, you are 100% wrong, there is in fact cannon evidence to World War III, and the Eugenics Wars being one and the same, All you need to do is watch "Space Seed" when Spock states that the last world war was in the 1990's, then McCoy confirms the fact they are the same, by calling it the Eugenics Wars. --TOSrules 08:49, Oct 31, 2004 (CET)


 * Spock's line was: "The 1990s was the era of your so-called third world war."--Lenonn 07:50, 23 Mar 2005 (EST)


 * In Borderland, Phlox states the augments were created in the 20th century: "This (genetic engeneering) is extremely sophisticated work for 20th century Earth.". However, we know WW3 ttok place in the 2050s. Davok 11:28, 31 Oct 2004 (CET)

Now I see that the page has been removed. It needs some rewriting anyway. A peckover 09:56, Jun 2, 2004 (CEST)


 * It was a copyvio, from someone else's non-canon speculation. It has been removed. If you wish to rewrite, please follow the direction on the notice. -- Michael Warren 09:59, 2 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * PS. There is a small amount of canon info suggesting the Eugenics Wars were later than 1990s. In "Dr. Bashir, I Presume", the Starfleet Admiral mentions them taking place 200 years ago.


 * From http://www.trekweb.com/RonDMoore/Ron_Moore_3_3_97-1.txt: "This is my personal screw-up. When I was writing that speech, I was thinking about Khan and somehow his dialog from "Wrath" starting floating through my brain:  "On Earth... 200 years ago... I was a Prince..."  The number 200 just stuck in my head and I put it in the script without making the necessary adjustment for the fact that "Wrath" took place almost a hundred years prior to "Dr. Bashir."  I wrote it, I get the blame."


 * That's exactly the problem: We have a clear contradiction here.... "Space Seed" and "Wrath of Kahn" suggest that the war took place in the 1990s. However, "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" and indirectly "Shockwave II" give reason to the assumption that it took place around 2060, 2070, 2080... Either we say that there were actually two Eugenics Wars OR we point out to the contradiction and let the reader decide OR we ignore one of the versions.... --BlueMars 12:49, Jun 2, 2004 (CEST)


 * I don't recall where I saw/heard it (possibly on the ST2 Special Edition (or whatever) DVD), but I seem to recall hearing that the "200 years" figure quoted by Khan was itself a mistake, and should have been larger to keep with "Space Seed"... if memory serves, the mistake was due to confusion over what year(s) (as in, century) TOS through ST2 actually took place in. I will try to see if I can find this again. --umrguy42 03:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, it has been my opinion for a while that the Third World War and the Eugenics Wars should be "unified" in dialogue on Enterprise, that would mean that they would have just finished as Cochrane was preparing to test the Phoenix. Alex Peckover 14:46, Jun 2, 2004 (CEST)


 * Agreed. Much in the same way that we refer separately to the Cold War and the Vietnam War.  In this way, one might say that The Eugenics War was prelud-ary action of WWIII, but considered by later historians to be part of WWIII.  Besides the Bashir quotes, is there anything to suggest that this is not the case? --Patton1138 22:33, 14 Feb 2005 (GMT)


 * Two centuries in Wrath of Khan means that it could even have been spilling during Cochrane's experiment, not the 1990s. And I don't remember other statements of time in the movie; as for ENT, I've not seen the episode yet, but developing a technology and implementing it could well make up for decades in between, and takeover might take some time as well. Think of the visions of Earth fed by Q in the TNG pilot, it's well past Phoenix's launch, it could well be that it didn't exist and that at some point schoolbook historians did a bit like 19th century historians did about the Middle Ages, adding negative preconceptions of pre-UFP earth to limited data for the current century.


 * I agree. The writers of Enterprise have the chance to settle the issue once and for all. Anyway, it seemed an article from my website was used. Lol. Ottens Jun 6, 2004


 * Since it looks like ENT is keeping the Wars in the 20th century, going by what Phlox said in "Borderland," does anyone object to the article using the specific dates given in "Space Seed"? "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" doesn't place the Wars in the 21st century anyway-- it says two centuries prior to the episode, which would actually place it after ENT, and after the end of wars on Earth as established in First Contact. --Steve 22:57, 3 Nov 2004 (CET)
 * I've always thought that we could just say about the comment in DS9 about the Eugenics Wars taking place two centuries to "the character simply mispoke." -- Krevaner 00:23, 4 Nov 2004 (CET)

I really don't like the article in it's current form. It has no strucutre. It is simply an ennumeration of the facts in consequential sentences. If somebody is going to rewrite anyway, could they do something about this. Also it is a bit short. You could change that by giving the facts and give different interpretations (as BlueMars suggests) in indented italics (though that may prove the wrong style, given this discussion). -- Redge 11:34, 28 Jun 2004 (CEST)


 * I just quickly wrote this up from memory, so there is at least something on this page (quite a lot of pages have linked to it). Feel free to make any changes, I'd say. Ottens 11:38, 28 Jun 2004 (CEST)

Changes by BlueMars on 13:45, 5 Nov 2004
A couple questions: why was the phrase "The 'supermen' usually treated their subjects as slaves" removed? Also, where is the evidence Soong performed his theft in 2134? Archer says, "Their genetically-enhanced DNA matched embryos stolen from a medical facility over 20 years ago." That would place the theft in 2133 at the least, and maybe '32 or '31, which is why I kept the date vague, though maybe 2130s would have been a better choice? --Steve 18:37, 5 Nov 2004 (CET)

The Book?
I forgot what its called but could a reference to the Books, Star Tre: The Eugenics Wars Volumes I & II be made if only as a footnote, they are a very well written adn are faithfull to the TOS timeline. Kahless 07:53, 19 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Historic Interchangability
It is quite possible that Spock was refering to the era of the conflict more than the actual war, much in the same way that the Japanese invasion of China is considered by some to be the real start of world war two, or perhaps in the way that World War one and World War two were cause and effect, and have been considered by some to be the same conflict.

If this is the case, then perhaps some of the fallout from the Eugenics Wars led to the problems leading up to the third World War, and is considered by some (especially impartial observers such as Spock) to be the same conflict.

"the era of your last so-called world war"
It should be noted that Spock stated the Eugenics Wars as "the era of your last so-called world war". This could be interpeted that some contemporaries during the conflict optimistically thought it would be the last global war. Much like how people after World War I thought it would be the Last War.
 * Canon material is a little vague about specifics regarding the Eugenics wars/WWIII connection. But, it has been repeatedly implied that, although they are not the same thing, there is a connection between them. The fact that Eugenics Wars is pluralized alone suggests more than one single conflict, a series of conflicts of that "era" beginning in the 1990s reaching conclusion with WWIII and the post atomic horror. Similarly, is the connection of WWI to WWII, which lead to the cold war. None of these are isolated incidents, but dependent on circumstances rising from their predecessor.--Mike Nobody 06:36, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Of interest
On the game review show "X-Play", the announcer introduced the hosts by stating they're "Still waiting for the Eugenics War." (X-Play often has the announcer state odd or humorus comments before introducing the hosts). After the introduction, co-host Adam Sessler quips "Roddenberry promised genocide, and we got squat." The joke is that The Eugenics Wars, in Star Trek, were supposed to occur in 1992. Fortunately, such a war did not occur.

Banning of Genetic Engineering
It had previously read:

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With somewhere around ~150 Nations, one could assume that while many nations banned it, there would still be some nations that allowed it. I doubt it would be until the formation of the United Earth Republic that something could be uniformly proscribed across Earth. Therefore Phlox's comment could be chronologically correct.