Talk:Mirror, Mirror (episode)

Moved from Background Information

 * Now projecting on the logical assumpation of Identical occurances between the Mirror and Star Trek universes together with notion that none of the freed planets will go back to the old Imperial empire after freeing themselves from the new Triple Alliance {which after all is just as corrupt as the old IIS Empire and must fall as Mirror Spock predicts after 240 years}- could this mean that this universe will be so weaken by nearly 200 years of exploitation, conflict, and moral corruption that it will be taken over by the Borg? --anon

This was a projection as to what could come next in the Mirror Universe. Not suited for background info or anywhere else in the article, and probably doesn't belong here, but I'll add it here anyway in case others wish to discuss its usefulness in the article. --From Andoria with Love 06:03, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * {Answer is YESS!! see Triva note in Wikipedia on TNG epsiode of a Borg Universive!!{reference only}


 * An apparent cultural error occurs when Kirk learns that his counterpart advanced to the command of the Enterprise by assassinating Captain Christopher Pike. In an Earth of unrelieved barbarism, it is highly unlikely that his predecessor could bear a name so full of Christian connotation.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. Who says it's unlikely? What is the source of this? Who said in the Mirror Universe that the name was of "Christian connotation"? It may mean something entirely different in the Mirror Universe. --From Andoria with Love 04:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * One significant problem created by this episode and unresolved in subsequent DS9 episodes is that when Kirk's landing party returned to his universe, according to Spock, the mirror landing party simply vanished. There is no explaination for this as DS9 charaters freely traveled back and forth often existing in the same space as their mirror counterparts. It is possible the mirror Mr. Scott got them out of the brig when no one was looking and back onto the transporter pad to co-incide with Kirk's arrival, or they were killed while trying to escape, or became secret prisoners of the Federation to hide the existence of the mirror universe from general knowlege and Spock's lame story was the official account of what happened to them.

Besides being opinionated, the above is inaccurate. I'm not sure where the user who posted the above got his information from. Spock said that the mirror counterparts of Kirk, Spock, Uhura, and McCoy likely returned to their own universe when his crewmembers returned; no other speculation is necessary, and since that is most likely what happened, no problem exists. --From Andoria with Love 03:03, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

ISS Enterprise
The original paragraph on the Enterprise was largely inaccurate. The visual evidence clearly shows the indicia of the second pilot model. See also Star Trek: Communicator, Issue 133 (Interview with Richard Datin). --GNDN 21:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Details of remastered ISS Enterprise
The entry claims that the new CGI model is mislabeled "USS" instead of "ISS." I didn't record the episode, so I can't check it to be sure, but I am certain that the above-saucer view of the ship (at the beginning of act II) showed the letters "ISS." Maybe the author believed that the above-saucer view of the Federation starship near the end of the episode (definitely labeled "USS") was its Imperial counterpart? At any rate, would someone be able to check the videotape/DVD to make sure? Thanks. --BlueResistance 21:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Background note
Here's a quote from the article page trivia: "The Halkans have theorized that a galactic revolt in 240 years will overthrow the Terran Empire (something Kirk must have read on the mirror-computer, because this factoid is introduced from out of nowhere in the final mirror-transporter scene). In the DS9 series about 110 years later, however, the Empire has already been replaced by a Bajoran Klingon Cardassian Alliance, which appears to be just as brutal as the old Terran Empire. If the Halkans' prediction is correct, then the Alliance will also fall. "

If Halkans predicted that in 240 years the Terran Empire will fall, but it actually falls within 110 years (according to DS9), replaced by the Bajoran Klingon Cardassian Alliance, isn't the Halkans prediction wrong? And if not, and they are just mistaken about the date that the Terran Empire falls, then why does it follow that this prediction would also mean that the Alliance will fall?
 * Yeah, that note makes no sense. I'm removing it. --OuroborosCobra talk 13:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Odd Trivia
Is it worth noting that Captain Kirk makes Captain's Logs in this episode, despite the fact that he has no apparent place to make Captain's logs to?

Leaving the logs on the I.S.S. Enterprise's computer would be the height of stupidity. Given that the clothes on his back have changed, he can't have any equipment with him to dictate logs to. Is he dictating to Uhura and hoping she remembers? Is he talking directly to us? - 66.93.144.171 02:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Blooper
There's a shot in the blooper reel, of Bill Shatner, De Kelley, Nichelle Nichols and Jimmy Doohan, prancing down a corridor in a conga line, while a bewildered redshirt looks on in disbelief. Nothing unusual there; it looks like they had a lot of fun while shooting our favorite show. I just find it odd that Nichelle Nichols and Jimmy Doohan were, years down the road, two of Shatner's biggest critics. That may be a moot issue now, as I understand that Shatner apologized to them both when Jimmy was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, not long before his death. -- Adambomb1701 14:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Jimmy? --OuroborosCobra talk 14:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't all us fans call him "Jimmy"? As I see it, it's a sign of the affection we have for him and his character. By the way, I did meet Mr. Doohan, at a convention way back in 1977. He had a goattee then, which he had shaved down to a mustache by the time ST-TMP began filming. -- Adambomb1701 14:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with calling people by their nicknames, Cobra? We're all friends here. Bill, Jimmy, Dee, Mike, Sid, Bob, Bobby, Dom, Tony ... we're all old pals! :) --From Andoria with Love 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Spock has an interesting line to Sulu...
The paragraph that begins with the line "Spock has an interesting line to Sulu," to me, seems to be just an exercise in opinion. Not that I necessarily disagree with it, but... it just seems unencyclopedic. Thought about simply deleting it outright, but wanted to ask others' opinion of the opinion. Should it go? Sir Rhosis 20:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed (and why)
Removed the following noncyclopedic phrases from two background items: "You would never know it from watching, but ..." and "We see ..."

Removed the following for the crime of nitpickery, in this case, postulating the existence of a second mirror universe to explain a minor costume mishap and being way too excited about the "sash is back (exclamation point)":
 * * When Chekov enters the turbolift with Kirk he's wearing the gold sash, but when he's in the lift with Kirk the sash is absent. When they leave the turbolift the sash is back! In terms of the Trek universe this can be explained as Kirk being in a state of quantum flux as a result of the transporter accident, and visiting at least two mirror universes.
 * Your edits were very good, but this bit I put back in as its not a nitpick reference, but a link to an explanation provided in . And actually a very good explanation at that.  Same info on Pavel Chekov (mirror).
 * OK, admittedly, I haven't see the episode in a while, but I still don't get it. Why would Kirk and no one else move to another universe for a few minutes? Regardless, the exclamation point still needs to go. :) - Bridge 15:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed this:
 * * In one syndicated version, the scene where Kirk finds out about the Tantalus Field is cut.

And in other syndicated versions, other things are cut. Unnecessary.

And finally, removed this, as it seems to be more of an analysis of philosophies within the episode than an encyclopedia entry:
 * * Spock has an interesting line to Sulu that is a classic of understated menace: "... I suggest you remember that my operatives would avenge my death, and some of them... are Vulcans."  We have only the haziest ideas of the Mirror Universe, and build up our ideas of it from these glimpses out of the corner of the eye - which are far more chilling than being told, directly. In the TOS episode, Vulcans are apparently fairly equal partners in the Empire.  However, if one starts with the the prequel, which depicted Vulcans as subservient to humans, Spock's line 100 years later suggests that his people have since gained a greater prominence in the Terran Empire, to the point where humans may actually fear Vulcans. It is also possible that Vulcans bear resentment or hurt pride over their past status and are known to act upon it against offensive humans.  Sulu certainly shuts up after Spock says that line.  In addition, Spock counterthreatens our-Kirk's assertion, "You would find me a formidable enemy," with, "I'm aware of that, Captain.  I trust that you are aware of the reverse." - Bridge 15:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

More Removed Information
I removed several notes, or parts of notes for various reasons. Below, information in is for context, and was not removed by me. I removed the following for being POV or needless speculation: And I think the following note is probably suited better for the MU page (if it isn't there already): – Cleanse 00:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Topping the list of moments that the network censors should have cut is Marlena's line of dialogue after she reappears in her bedroom outfit: "Oiling my traps, darling!"
 * Thats actually mentioned in several refernence manuals. I'll find out exactly which ones before putting it back in, but its been brought up that the censors missed that one. -FleetCaptain 04:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (This episode is the only instance in all of Star Trek in which Scotty refers to Captain Kirk simply as "Jim"), perhaps (fittingly) because this is one situation where Scott feels he cannot "work a miracle" to resolve the situation and is desperate to stay behind to save his shipmates. William Shatner's response as Kirk is one of surprise and affection.
 * (When Chekov enters the turbolift with Kirk he's wearing the gold sash, but when he's in the lift with Kirk the sash is absent. When they leave the turbolift the sash is back.) In terms of the Trek universe this can be explained as Kirk being in a state of quantum flux as a result of the transporter accident, and visiting at least two mirror universes.
 * Read the entire talk page discussion above about why that needs to be kept. It ties directly into the info put forth in .  I don't plan on repeating what was said up above, only that we have all had this discussion before. -FleetCaptain 04:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * While it isn't canon, but the novel "Glass Empires" showed that Empress Hoshi Sato promised T'Pol that if the Vulcan Rebellion would end, she would make all Vulcans citizens of the Empire, ending their status as slaves and giving them equal rights with humans. It would certainly explain just how Vulcans had the greater prominence by the time of "Mirror, Mirror."

Replies to FleetCaptain (putting it down here to avoid confusion with my original comments):

In regards to the network censors, I thought just from the way it was phrased that it was just some fan going "geez, those censors really screwed up!", without any basis for this claim. If you could find a ref and rephrase it, that would be great. My problem was entirely with the POV of the note.

In regards to the infamous disappearing sash - alas I didn't see the discussion above when I skimmed the page. Sorry about that. My problem with the note was mostly that it appeared to suggest that to remain in-universe, we NEEDED to have a trek-science explanation. Because I don't see any problem in-universe to write it off as a production error (kinda like Sisko's pips in ). In that respect the phrasing on Pavel Chekov (mirror) is better: "While simply a production error...have led some fans to speculate... " How's that sound as a compromise? – Cleanse 05:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with the phrase "some fans speculate..." or variations on the theme is that they're with no claim to substantiation. In other words, with no citation, "some fans" could be thousands of people, or (more likely) could resolve to "my friend and I", which opens us up to an unending succession of baseless speculation and theorizing. We should not have any instances of "some fans speculate" here, in my mind, and anything even close to it should be cited in some manner. -- Renegade54 14:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * While "being in a state of quantum flux" is some explanation for what is going on, it's not really as if any in-universe explanation for a simple continuity error is really necessary. Let's leave that out. -- Cid Highwind 15:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. As has been said before, Memory Alpha is not the place for speculation. It may tie in to another episode, but it's still speculation. As Cid said, it's just a bloody continuity error... no speculative explanation necessary. --From Andoria with Love 17:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We can cut out all the stuff about "some fans speculate". All I'm asking for is some kind of a link to  which says something to the affect of "while simply a production error, the events in "Parallels" offer one possible explanation."  I don't think that's too much to ask and keeping it in prevents someone else from coming along and adding it back who doesn't know the history behind this discussion.  -FleetCaptain 18:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I withdraw my suggestion. In that case, just cut it. – Cleanse 08:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Blooperfest
The following was removed by myself and User:72.38.212.174:

Can't seem to emphasize this enough, but Memory Alpha is not "the Nitpickers Guide For Classic Trekkers". I'm sure we all could pick apart every aspect of every show, but that is not the point of this here e-n-c-y-c-l-o-p-e-d-i-a. --Alan 04:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * '' Another error occurs when McCoy makes his "I'm a doctor not a..." speech, and his wedding ring briefly becomes visible.
 * '' A continuity error occurs at the end of this episode, in which James Doohan is at the Engineering station on the bridge in the long shots, but is not behind McCoy and Kirk in the close-ups. Also, the arm of a stage hand is briefly visible "operating" the door that McCoy and Scott drag the guard through.
 *  When Chekov enters the turbolift with Kirk he's wearing the gold sash, but when he's in the lift with Kirk the sash is absent. When they leave the turbolift the sash is back. In terms of the Trek universe (as discussed in ) this can be explained as Kirk being in a state of quantum flux as a result of the transporter accident, and visiting at least two'' mirror universes.
 *  In the final mirror-transporter scene, Uhura comes up from behind Marlena to disarm her. She grabs Marlena's wrist and, in what appears'' to be a flub, Nichelle Nichols drops the phaser, but then awkwardly scoops it up and moves to cover Marlena.
 * '' There's a blooper from this episode in the second season blooper reel. William Shatner, DeForest Kelley, Nichelle Nichols, and James Doohan dance down a corridor, with a red-shirted extra looking on in disbelief.
 * '' In a scene cut from the final episode, Kirk, McCoy and Scotty approach the captain's cabin. Kirk returns the guard's salute and says, "Let them pass," referring to his companions.  In the blooper, William Shatner collides with the cabin door, which wasn't opened fast enough backstage.


 * We'd already agreed to leave the sash note out, but it seems like we didn't actually remove it or it was reinstated - see the discussion(s) above. Well, it's gone now.


 * I'm not really sure we need to remove the stuff from the blooper reel; it's not a nitpick. It's just banal trivia. But heck, that's probably reason enough anyhow. I'm not sad to see it gone.– Cleanse 05:36, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Having just watched the episode again, I checked out this entry. This is an interesting discussion, but I have a couple of additions/corrections to this blooper list. The first is that the ring seen when McCoy makes his "I'm a doctor..." speech isn't a blooper. It's part of his counterpart's uniform, just as the sash. It is visible in other scenes. The second is a bit more on the Chekov sash argument (which I agree is and should be referenced as a mere production error). Not only is his sash missing in the turbolift, but on his right hand side, he is wearing his agonizer while in the turbolift, but his knife when he before and after. Tfleming 22:13, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Missing scene
I watched this episode earlier, and the scene where Scotty tries to sabotage the phasers is missing! Basically, it cuts from Kirk telling Sulu to stand by with the phasers, straight to Spock walking in! Does anyone know why this bit was cut out? I feel robbed... 90.200.153.58 01:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Syndication isn't your friend. Sorry. -- Sulfur 02:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Removed
I'm just having a hard time accepting the placement of the following in the background.

It really seems that it would be better placed in individual articles or elsewhere. --Alan 06:44, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Mirror-Spock theorizes that a galactic revolt will overthrow the Terran Empire in approximately 240 years. In the DS9 series about 110 years later, the Empire has already been replaced by the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. His estimate was based on the empire continuing down its current course, meaning Kirk's advice may have hastened the empire's fall.
 * Besides the obvious changes in the personalities and assignments on the mirror universe ship, the following differences are evident in the Mirror Universe:
 * Crew members carry personal knives and agony devices.
 * Phasers are worn with the handles facing forward, and on the left.
 * The security chief uses his power and monitoring equipment to spy on crewmembers.
 * An emblem of planet Earth appears on doors and walls, stabbed with a knife. When doors open, the Earth is split in half.
 * Crewmembers salute the captain, in a somewhat fascist style.
 * The captain and other high-ranking officers routinely have mistresses.
 * Some officers may wear sleeveless shirts. Sashes are part of uniforms, too.
 * Female crewmembers wear wrap-around skirts and halter tops, baring their midriffs.
 * Torture, including inducing it just for fun, is routine.
 * The transporter has a different pattern during de/re-materialization.
 * One advances in rank by assassinating one's superiors.
 * Blatant breach of regulations earns one a session in the agony booth and/or the death penalty.
 * Kirk's quarters has knives and colorful stones of some kind on display.
 * The computer has a male voice.
 * Spock has a beard.
 * Sulu has a scar.
 * High-ranking officers employ henchmen and bodyguards.
 * Officers display their medals on their uniforms at all times, not just on dress uniforms (possibly the mirror Starfleet has no dress uniforms).
 * I agree. The episode page should be about the episode, not about the differences between the universes.  That's why we have a page on the mirror universe.--31dot 11:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Quotes removed
The quote section was somewhat long, so I have removed the following quotes per MA:QUOTE:

"I ORDER YOU! LET ME GO!"
 * - Mirror Kirk

"You traitorous pig. I'll hang you up by your Vulcan ears. I'll have you all executed!"

"I think not. Your authority on this ship is extremely limited, Captain."
 * - Mirror Kirk and Spock

"You would find me a formidable opponent."

"I am aware of that, Captain. I trust that you are aware of the reverse."
 * - Kirk and Mirror Spock

"It's your play, I hope you succeed. Because the order would fall on me next, and you know how Captain Kirk's enemies have a... habit of... disappearing."

"If I am successful, you see yourself a step nearer to the captaincy. I do not want to command the Enterprise, but if it should befall me, I suggest that you remember that my operatives would avenge my death and some of them are Vulcans."
 * - Mirror Spock and Mirror Sulu

"I've been a captain's woman, and I like it. I'll be one again, if I have to go through every officer in the fleet."

"You could... I simply meant that you could be anything you wanted to be."
 * - Mirror Marlena and Kirk

"What is this, Mr. Sulu?"

"Mr. Spock has orders to kill you, Captain. He will succeed...apparently.  You will also appear to have killed him, after a fierce battle.  Regrettable, but it will leave me in command."


 * - Kirk and Mirror Sulu

"Spock?"

"Welcome home, Captain."


 * - Kirk and Spock, upon the landing party's return to the "real" Enterprise.

"Jim, I think I liked him with a beard better. It gave him character. Of course almost any change would be a distinct improvement."

"What worries me is the easy way his counterpart fitted into that other universe. I always thought Spock was a bit of a pirate at heart."
 * - McCoy and Kirk, on Spock comparing them to their mirror counterparts.

"A promotion?"

"You're in line. You might even make captain."

"Yes, sir!" (Kirk punches Wilson)

"Not on my ship."
 * - Mirror Wilson and Kirk

"Spock, what is it you want? Power?"

"Fascinating."

"Power, Spock?! I can get that for you!!"
 * - Mirror Kirk and Spock

"Captain. I am pleased that you frustrated Mr. Chekov's plan.  I should regret your death."

"Why?"

"I do not desire the captaincy. I much prefer my scientific duties and I am frankly content to be a lesser target."

"Logical as always, Mr. Spock."
 * - Mirror Spock and Kirk

"Captain? You do have the might to force the crystals from us, of course."

"But we won't. Consider that."
 * - Halkan Leader and Kirk

"Still no interest, Uhura? Hmm?  I could change your mind."

"You are away from your post, mister."

"Is the captain here? Is Spock here?  When the cat's away..."
 * - Mirror Sulu, to Lt. Uhura

"Scotty, can you do it?"

"Not by myself, I'll need help and you'd be too conspicuous."

(Scotty and Kirk both glance at McCoy)

"I'm a doctor, not an engineer."

"Now you're an engineer."
 * - Kirk, Scotty and McCoy

--31dot 21:26, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Remastered USS Enterprise
Whereas the symbol on the bridge door of the ISS Enterprise was not changed, the remastered version of the USS Enterprise in all episodes (not just this one) shows a merely red bridge door where in the old times used to be a globe without the sword. Why is that?217.94.203.174 16:08, October 18, 2012 (UTC)