Talk:Guinan/archive


 * I moved the following here since the Talk:Guinan page was getting long, and this one resolved topic was most of said length. —MJBurrage 18:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

On Images
I was looking to add an image of young Guinan from, but looking over the page...and I hate to say it, but aren't we going a wee bit overboard on the images here? It's supposed to be an article, not an image gallery. --Gvsualan 13:24, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I realise there are very much images on this page, and I uploaded practically all of them. With the exception of one of two images, most are quite relevant, as they show Guinan with one of the Enterprise senior staff, and information to which the image adds value is discussed right next to it. Many of the images are also used on other pages (and in the future, can be used on other pages, for example the image of Guinan and Geordi should be used on the Geordi La Forge page when information on his relationship with Guinan is added there). So I don't think we're really over-doing it on this page, although I agree, in comparison with other pages on characters, there are quite a lot of images here. Ottens 20:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Gvsualan here - in my opinion there are too many images on this page, including several that don't really need to appear anywhere else. Guinan is an important character, of course, but 16 images...? For example, while Guinans relationship to various members of the senior staff is important, we probably don't need an image for each of them - right now there are 12 images of Guinan talking to someone, perhaps those can be reduced to 3-4? -- Cid Highwind 19:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The thing is that many of the images are and can be used on other pages. Let me therefore discuss the images one by one.
 * 1, 2 and 3: Two images of Guinan and one of her in 19th century Earth, the latter which can be used on the page. The other two are Guinan-specific.
 * 4. Shows Guinan with Q. Can be used on the page in the future, when a longer summary is written, and possibly on the Q page also. Additionally, it helps to illustrate the considerably information there is on the relationship between Guinan and Q.
 * 5. Shows Picard and Guinan shortly after a game of fencing. Can be used on the page when a longer summary is written for that episode, and it helps illustrate the information discussed in the paragraph next to it.
 * 6. Shows Riker, Wesley and Guinan. Is used on the William T. Riker and pages also. Can also be used on the Wesley Crusher page in the future. Not a vital image, but as it is now used on three pages, and can be used on a fourth in the future, I'd say deletion is not at all necessary.
 * 7 and 8. Shows Picard and Guinan. Both images are used on the pages of the episodes they're from ( and ). At least one is required to illustrate Guinan's relationship with Picard (both images are used on the Jean-Luc Picard page also, of course).
 * 9. Shows Crusher and Guinan. Can be used on the Beverly Crusher and [the episode the image is from] pages in the future. The images helps illustrate Guinan's relationship to Beverly Crusher, and I feel at least one image concerning this is required.
 * 10. Shows Wesley Crusher and Guinan. Can be used on the Wesley Crusher page in the future, and on the page of the episode the image is from when a longer summary of that episode is written. Again, I feel at least one image is required to illustrate Guinan's relationship with Wesley.
 * 11. Shows Guinan with Geordi. Can be used on the Geordi La Forge page in the future, and on the page of the episode the image is from when a longer summary of that episode is written. As Guinan's relationship with Geordi is quite important, again I think one image is required to illustrate their relationship.
 * 12. Shows Guinan and Worf. I used on the Prune juice page also, and is the page image of the beverage. Can also be used on the Worf page in the future.
 * 13. Again Guinan and Worf. Can be used on the page in the future, but I agree this image is not at all necessary. I would propose deletion for this one.
 * 14. Shows Guinan and Ro Laren. I also used on the page and can be used on the Ro Laren page in the future. At least one image would be required to illustrate Guinan's relationship with Ro.
 * 15. Shows Guinan silencing a dream-deprived mob. Not necessary, but also used on the Magus III and pages. Deletion would be optional, but its the best image we've got of the weapon Guinan's holding, so I'd say removal is not necessary.
 * 16. Shows Guinan and Geordi during Nemesis. Although also used on the Geordi La Forge page, this one isnt necessary either, and I would propose deletion for this one therefore. Ottens 22:03, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But this does not mean they all have to be included on the Guinan page. But again, Generally, no more than one or two images should be used in an article; three images might be acceptable for some long articles. --Gvsualan 00:01, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * If three images is the maximum, then most episode pages containing an average length summary already have way too many images. Take a look at featured character pages as Beverly Crusher and William T. Riker. Although they're of course much longer than the Guinan page, they contain much more than three images, which is only acceptable for long articles, according to the image policy. Should the number of images be reduced on those pages, or is the image policy out-of-date?
 * I agree there are a lot of images, and I would say we have two or three removed (as discussed above), but as most of the other images (save three) are already used on other pages as well, and most of them can be used on even more pages in the future, I don't see the necessity of deletion. Ottens 12:17, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Reusability is an important factor when considering the utility of an image, but it should never be the only factor: Obviously, any image showing two characters could appear on at least four pages (Character A, B, Episode, Location), probably on much more than that. That doesn't mean that it is an important addition to any of those pages. Most of the images showing Guinan talking to someone aren't that useful for the episode summaries, and while they illustrate the relationship between Guinan and various other characters, this really isn't necessary or required - the detailed text about "Friendships" should be enough. -- Cid Highwind 19:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree reusability is not the only important factor in considering the necessity of an image. However, most images at MA are not "required". If we would want every image for be "necessary", then every character page would do fine with just one image.
 * I realise the Guinan page has quite a lot of images. However, as they are reused on other pages, what's the trouble of having them on the Guinan page also? Do we "need" an image to illustrate a relationship? No, such image is not "necessary". Should we therefore have all these "unnecessary" images removed? Looking at some of the best character pages we have (Beverly Crusher, William T. Riker, Janice Rand, Benjamin Sisko) they all contain many images, most of which, by the standard you would set, are not "required" -- not required at all.
 * However, I quote one of MA's guidelines: "Inform and enterain". An article isn't purely about the information; an article is to be attractive and fun to read. Removing most of these images showing Guinan talking to someone would leave up a whole bulk of text, which would be much less attractive to read than it is now, with images.
 * Finally, I don't really see the problem in having images on a page while they're not "necessary" on that page, but they are on another page. We have the image at MA anyway, so why not use it on another article where perhaps it isn't necessary, but where it does add some value to the article, namely to illustrate the text discussed right next to it. Ottens 20:40, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I would like this issue to be resolved as soon as possible, so I'm hoping to receive a response any time soon.
 * Anyway, I have reduced the number of images to 13, removing four images I found unnecessary, of which I nominated three for deletion. While I agree there are a lot of images on this page, I do not think it is necessary to have any more removed, for reasons stated above. Ottens 13:44, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * My two cents. I agree with Ottens current position. I think it looks nice as it is and while I wouldn't want the files uploaded if not needed; if they are already being use I don't see there being too much harm. Tyrant 13:48, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)Tyrant


 * Don't know if it is really necessary to have more then one pic of her with Picard, or any other crew member for that matter, not sure what that does. Perhaps the repetition should be avoided? Tyrant 17:09, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)Tyrant


 * Can this matter be resolved any time soon? Ottens 10:21, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Zsingaya, you could at least have waited with reducing the number of images on the pages until the matter had been resolved here... It's really rather unappropriate to go and change things like this while the matter is still under discussion. Ottens 14:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didnt see you talk until after I made my edit. Nevertheless, i reverted by my edit and zsingaya's until this is resolved. On a side note, I still think this article could use the image of "young Guinan" from as I mentioned in the post that started this landslide. --Gvsualan 14:46, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I was just trying to resolve the problem. I know its still under discussion, I've been following it as its evolved.  Gvsualan also tried out changing the images around.  Isn't it worth trying out the changes to see if anyone approves? zsingaya 14:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * In order to resolve this matter, I suggest the following compromise: one image per relationship. As it is now, the section dealing with Guinan relationship with Ro Laren is apparently worth an image, while those dealing with Beverly, Geordi and Worf have no images -- that while Guinan's relationship with the latter three was much more explored than her friendship with Ro.
 * The only issue that bugs me is the number of images of Guinan and Picard; there are currently three, and that is obviously too much. I do think, however, that the section on fencing is worth an image, and that the image showing Guinan and Picard talking about Data's rights is quite significant to illustrate their relationship. I do not, however, see the problem in having more images on the page than absolutely required, as we have the images anyway. What, basically, is the problem with this? Ottens 14:50, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Since the start of this, I already removed a number of images by the way, reducing the number from 16 to 12. Ottens 14:52, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see any problem with having a few more images than normal about this character, since she is well documented. Has anyone checked the Jean-Luc Picard page recently, and noticed it contains over 20 images??? zsingaya 14:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Adding to that, the Beverly Crusher has 16 images (of which 3 on her relationship with Picard!), and it can even use more images (on her relationships with Q and Deanna Troi, for example, and some from significant events). Of course the pages of Picard and Crusher are longer than the Guinan page, and thus I already reduced the number of images on the Guinan article. Now, we may remove one of the images showing Picard and Guinan, but for the rest I think all images really suit the article, and are not at all unnecessary. Ottens 14:56, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not having replied earlier. Continuing the "reusability" part of the discussion... It's one thing to reuse an image that is "necessary" somewhere else (although even then we shouldn't reuse all images on all possible pages) - it's something completely different to use an image that isn't really "necessary" anywhere.
 * Take the "Guinan watching Lal" image, for example. It isn't necessary here, because we already have a portrait photo of Guinan, and it isn't necessary on Ten Forward, the other photo of Guinan could be used there as well. It isn't necessary on any other page (potentially Lal,, ...) either, because it doesn't show anything besides Guinan.
 * The same could be said about most of the "Guinan talking to X" photos. While one or two of them should be included, we don't need all of them on this page, and, in my opinion, none of them on other pages, because they are too specific. -- Cid Highwind 14:57, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Some of the images are really huge. For example, the one with Geordi and Guinan fills the screen, when it could be re-uploaded to make it smaller and take up less filespace. zsingaya 15:02, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Such images could be reduced in size to save space. There's no discussion necessary for that... Ottens 15:07, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The image of Guinan watching over Lal's social progress is indeed not necessary, and if I'd have to remove an image from this page it would be that one. However, in my opinion, that image, along with either of the two showing her and Picard, are the only two images that are really "unnecessary" on this page. On all other extended character pages, we have an image showing two characters to illustrate their relationship, whether they're actually doing something significant or not.
 * If "some" of the "Guinan talking to X" images may be included, than which would be significant enough? You say these photos are too specific, but apparently some may be included and others may not? That while all images show her doing the same thing: talking with someone -- because that's the only thing Guinan does!
 * Of course these iamges are "specific", because they serve to illustrate a personal relationship. How can a "non-specific" image be included to serve that purpose? Ottens 15:07, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Regarding that, it's my opinion that it is really not necessary two have an image for each pair of individuals. It is important for the Guinan article to show what she does - talking to people - but it is not important to show her with every main or even recurring character she ever talked to. "Specific" in the context of our discussion refers to the idea of reusability - the images are too specific to be used anywhere else, so they can't really be reused here. -- Cid Highwind 15:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * That's not really true. First of all, they can logically be used on the pages of those characters. Secondly, about half of the images showing her talking with someone can be used on the pages of the episode they're from. Thirdly, the image with her and Worf is the best one we've got on Prune juice.
 * All with all, there is only one image that cannot be used on another page, and that is the head-shot portrait. Image 2 is used on and Data, 3 is also used on El-Aurian (Guinan.jpg can be used there also, but I thought it'd be niced to have two screencaps), 4 is used on Picard and, 5 on Q and can be used on , 6 is also used on Picard, 7 on Riker and , 8 on Picard and , 9 on Beverly Crusher, 10 can be used on Geordi La Forge, 11 is used on Prune juice and can be used on Worf in the future, 12 is used on  and can be used on Ro Laren in the future.
 * Except for one of the two head-shots and one of the three images with her and Picard, I really don't see how any of these images is "unnecessary". Ottens 15:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I originally mentioned some of this yesterday on Ten Forward because I thought that is where this debate we being held, so I'm going to repost/rewrite it here:

Despite my concerns that started off this debate at the top of this page, I don't think quantity is so much the issue here as is the relevancy. There really should only be maybe 6-7 good images on her page on the page. Yes Guinan talks to people, but how many times do we have to see her talking with someone? Worf likes to fight, but that doesnt mean we need to put a picture up for every man he killed. Overall, this page needs the minimum of 1-headshot, 1-w/ Picard, 1-w/ Q, 1-w/ Ro and one of her in the 19th century. Period. The necessity of the remaining "interaction images", to me, remain doubtful. The same can be said about the multiple images of interaction with the same character -- Guinan w/ Picard (x3)??. Now, granted, her relationships with the other crewmembers were important...they were never exactly 'life-affirming', at least compared to the more 'emotional' interactions that she had with say, Picard (love) and Q (hate). The importance of Ro is that Guinan is responsible for Ro getting a start on turning her career around, plus they spent almost the entire episode of (which is still not represented here) together. Guinan (and Picard) was one of the greatest influences on Ro's character development, and that is more important in the "whole big picture" than introducing Worf to natures laxative.

In much the same way, I don't think we need images of every primary character interacting with every other primary character, unless there is a strong or, at least, a "meaningful to the character's development"-type relationship between the two (again Guinan/Ro, Guinan/Picard, 100%). But also, having "individual images" of a character without anyone else in it can also, just as easily, be placed on another characters page without requiring images of the two characters interacting. Looking at the Leonard McCoy page, for example, there are images of notable individuals mentioned on his page without him actually being in a picture with them. By cutting back on "interaction images" and sticking to "singles" -- we can cut back on clogging up the image archive. --Gvsualan 17:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * What use would an individual shot do to illustrate a relationship. A photo of the character the relationship-section is about doesn't illustrate the relationship, but merely shows the person. That may be acceptable when no better image is available, though, but also keeping in mind all other extended character pages also have images showing two characters together (the section on Beverly Crusher page dealing with her relationship with Picard has even 3 (!!) images) -- such images would be the logical choice to illustrate a relationship...
 * I agree two head-shots are unnecessary, and I agree three images showing Guinan with Picard are unnecessary as well. Thus, I reduced the number of images on the page further down to ten. I really don't think more images should be removed...
 * If the image of Guinan talking with Ro is important because their relationship made Ro make a life-changing decission, then the image showing Worf talk to Guinan should stay also. After all, Guinan made Worf decide to request a leave of absence from Starfleet to join Gowron's cause in the Civil War. There used to be an image showing Worf and Guinan actually talk about that, but since the current image can also be used on the Prune juice page, I think it makes more sense to keep the current one.
 * The only two images left for disagreement would then be those showing Guinan talk to Riker, to Beverly and to Geordi. The first two images are also used on other pages, where (especially on ) they are quite important. The image showing her talk with Geordi can be used on the Geordi La Forge page in the future, and I think her relationship with Geordi certainly had influence on his future relationships. All with all, these images are not worth deletion, so since we have these images anyway, why would it hurt to have them on this page also? I asked before: what really is the trouble in having these images on the page when we have them anyway? Ottens 18:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just because we have the pictures, doesn't mean we need the pictures. They can be deleted in a wink of an eye, and just as easily be uploaded again another day. We can always keep them in mind when M/A becomes a gallery first, information archive second. Besides, it's not like those were images just laying around, they were all uploaded specifically with this article in mind, as they pretty much all appeared here first.

Anyway -- so we've established that Guinan listens to people, and she occasionally gives them advice. The question is, do we need to see Guinan giving advice seven different times to seven different people? If we want to play the "it makes the article entertaining" card...then we need to add entertaining images of Guinan to the page, not: File:Guinan and person A at table.jpg, File:Guinan and person B at table.jpg, File:Guinan and person C at bar.jpg, File:Guinan and person D at table.jpg, File:Guinan and person E at bar.jpg, File:Guinan and person F at bar.jpg. That's not entertaining in the least bit; that's redundant and boring. It's not like she's morphing into a hawk, or taking command of a starship at a critical moment or battling a Jem'Hadar soldier. That's exactly what this article needs to justify having a lot of images. To me, seven different images of Guinan listening, no matter which way you look at it, is a mighty superflous way of "illustrating" her ability to listen people. --Gvsualan 02:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * We're talking about merely two or three images which are not absolutely necessary, but indeed help to make the article "entertaining". WIth only a small number of images, a longer article gets boring to read. It cheers the article up, and for that reason I also included some quotes in the thumbs.
 * If we decide that these images we're talking about (Guinan & Beverly, Guinan & Geordi and perhaps Guinan & Riker) are indeed to be removed, then this will become the standard way of dealing with such matters at MA.
 * Look at the excellent Beverly Crusher page. It has three image showing her with Picard. These images are necessary on other pages, and therefore there's no problem in having them on the Beverly Crusher page also. At least, I heard no one complain about those...
 * Look at the Jean-Luc Picard page. Consequence of your "rule", some images should be removed from that page accordingly. The same goes for the featured William T. Riker -- although much longer than the Guinan page, there are some "unnecessary" images there also. Also, why does the Hikaru Sulu page need 6 images, all showing Sulu only then in a different year? Ayala has four images, all of himself. Elizabeth Cutler only appeared in three episodes, but has an image from each. Even Telek R'Mor, who only appeared in one episode, has three images -- all of himself!
 * Now, the Guinan page as it is only has one image that is page-specific, and even that one is used on another page also (El-Aurian). If we're going to make it a rule that there are not to be any unnecessary images on a page, then we need to remove a lot of images from good articles -- featured articles. Ottens 14:59, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Conversely, if we are allowing this article to use ten pictures of the same person doing the same thing again and again, then that might become the standard way of dealing with such matters - I guess that's why we are having this discussion.
 * This is not about an article having more than three images - this is about an article having several images that are neither adding anything of importance to this article nor "necessary" on any other article (in which case they might be reused).
 * To make myself as clear as possible: I don't mind if an article as long as Guinan has more than three images - I just don't think that the original 16 images are the best choice of images. -- Cid Highwind 15:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Which is why I reduced the number to 10. I think the page as it is now is acceptable.
 * With images accompanying the "Personal relationships" section, most images are either two characters talking with each other, or just two characters standing next to each other, or even merely looking at each other.
 * And, for the third time, I would like to ask why other pages (to which I have linked above) are allowed to have several images showing the same character(s) doing the same thing. Ottens 16:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Which is, again, why I (and others) don't think that each "personal relationship" absolutely has to have an image - they don't add much to the article, and they are relatively boring. If you want to entertain, why not add other images (and if there are no other possible images, why add anything at all)?
 * Regarding the other pages, they are no more or less "allowed" to have such images - it's just that we are talking about the article Guinan here, not about general image use policy (I think that's being discussed on Memory Alpha:Ten Forward at the moment). -- Cid Highwind 16:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I just found it odd that no one ever objected against over-use of images on other pages, especially pages of minor characters having three of four images.
 * Anyhow, I think that most of the images on the Guinan page are now acceptable. 1) A headshot is required; 2) Guinan in the 19th century is quite significant, plus the image is necessary on the page; 3) Guinan and Q: significant; 4) Guinan and Picard after fencing: illustrates their relationship and illustrates Guinan's hobby; 5) Riker and Guinan pretending to be flirting: the image shows a significant scene from, but isn't absolutely necessary on the Guinan page; 6) Picard and Guinan talk about Data's rights: image to illustrate their relationship and a significant scene in ""; 7) To illustrate the relationship of Beverly and Guinan: not necessary; 8) To illustrate the relationship of Geordi and Guinan: not necessary; 9) To illustrate the relationship of Worf and Guinan: important on the Prune juice page, not absolutely necessary on the Guinan page; 10) To illustrate the relationship of Ro and Guinan: significant on the  page: not absolutely necessary on the Guinan page.
 * All with all, there are only two images which aren't necessary on either the Guinan or another page: the images showing her talk with Geordi and with Beverly.
 * I have already nominated six images which used to be on the Guinan page, and I think ten images are acceptable for a medium-sized article like this (Jean-Luc Picard has more than twice that number). I have to admit there are two or three images which aren't vital for any page, but I do think they make a nice addition to the page. Besides, they can perfectly be included on the pages of the other character on the image as well. Thus, I do not think deletion of even more images from the Guinan page is required. Ottens 16:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Edit Conflict
Ottens, you reverted some of my picture - moving/replacing, may I ask why? In it's current form the two images of Riker and Guinan under friendships and then the pic of captain Picard are kinda messy when their next to each other as so, causing gaps. Also, most of the pictures in the "Friends" section is just a picture of her talking to people at a bar, awfully one-dimensional being as she's a bar tender, I believe File:Guinan beats Worf at phaser range.jpg would much better-ly fit under "Worf", showing she's done other things as well. - AJHalliwell 23:06, 17 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Concerning the Worf image: there was a conflict over the number of images on this page a while ago. You uploaded a new image with File:Guinan beats Worf at phaser range.jpg while we already have an image of Worf and Guinan which can also be used on the Prune juice page. Now we have two images of the same thing, and yours can only be used on one page, mine on two.
 * Concerning the other two images. Quite frankly... I don't know why I reverted your edit here... :S Your configuration of the Riker and Picard images makes more sense, so I reverted my edit. Sorry for the inconvenience here. Ottens 09:10, 18 Jul 2005 (UTC)